S3 Ep027 Public Accommodations for Marginalized Groups: Designing for Neurodiversity and Disability with Han Malyn, Pt3
In part 3 of our 4-part conversation, Han Malyn (they/them) speaks with Kinderpublic about the experience of neurodivergence in public space, and how increased awareness and empathy can improve inclusion. We discuss:
Receiving a diagnosis of neurodivergence as an adult, and how that shed light on past experiences;
How design and operational choices in public space can cause difference to be experienced as disability;
Examples of potential barriers to inclusion and examples of effective accommodations;
How inequities for neurodivergent and disabled individuals begin in our educational system.
Bio:
Han (they/them) has worked and volunteered in the nonprofit sector for 15+ years across a broad range of sectors, including visual arts, arts education, the LGBTQI+ community, human rights, and ending poverty. They are based in the greater DC area.
“There tends to be a lot of attitude in our society of like, well, you need to deal with your own issues. And that's really easy to say when all of your issues have already been catered to. And I think people don't realize that their issues have already been catered to, because it's just how they're used to things existing, because the world was built for certain types of people. And they're like, “Well, I don't have any issues with things.” And you're like, “Yes, it was planned around you, things weren't planned around me.” And it's, you know, it's the recurring theme of, from a place of privilege, it's hard to see what you're getting that other people aren't.
-Han Malyn
Transcript
Season 3, Episode 27 (Part 3 of 4) Public Accommodations for Marginalized Groups: Designing for Neurodiversity and Disability with Han Malyn
Han Malyn (they/them):
There tends to be a lot of attitude in our society of like, well, you need to deal with your own issues. And that's really easy to say when all of your issues have already been catered to. And I think people don't realize that their issues have already been catered to, because it's just how they're used to things existing, because the world was built for certain types of people. And they're like, “Well, I don't have any issues with things.” And you're like, “Yes, it was planned around you, things weren't planned around me.” And it's, you know, it's the recurring theme of, from a place of privilege, it's hard to see what you're getting that other people aren't.
[Rhythmic sounds of electric train pulling into station]
[Subway chimes arpeggio played on mandolin]
Cevan Castle, she/her:
Welcome to Towards a Kinder Public, a podcast dedicated to designing kinder public space that better meets our interconnected needs. I’m Cevan Castle, and along with Annie Chen, we are Kinderpublic.
Our guest is Han Malyn, who has worked and volunteered in the nonprofit sector for over 15 years, across a broad range of areas, including visual arts, arts education, the LGBTQI+ community, human rights, and ending poverty. Han has dual degrees in Studio Art and Economics from Kalamazoo College, and a masters degree in Non Profit Arts Administration from NYU.
Han’s pronouns are they/them, my pronouns are she/her.
In this episode, Han speaks about the experience of neurodivergence in public space. They share examples of design and operational choices that would significantly improve accessibility for neurodivergent and disabled individuals, including spatial resources, schedule flexibility, modifications to sensory exposures, elements of architectural design, and how designing for a range of abilities will become a public good that everyone uses and benefits from - just like curb cuts.
We also discuss the personal experience of receiving the diagnosis of neurodivergence as an adult, the cost of withholding supports based on incorrect assumptions, and inequities in our educational system for neurodivergent and disabled individuals.
In David Gissen’s impactful book, The Architecture of Disability: Buildings, Cities, and Landscapes Beyond Access, he points out that a lot of our design ideas about improving accessibility are focused very specifically on the study of circulation patterns within a building (meaning, how we move around), and usually, with wheelchair access in mind. He writes, “We have been [locating] the architectural problem of disability as a largely functional one.” He defines the ”functionalist perspective” as one that believes “buildings should represent essential physical capacities and activities. This typically involves the manner in which the forms of buildings reflect their inhabitants’ physical movements.” (Gissen, p. x-xii)
Architects look very specifically at the width of pathways, doorways, grade of slope, and surface. While these are important, this approach often ignores other barriers and experiences of difference.
Just as disability or difference is not only an issue of mobility, access is not only an issue of moving, but also of staying in a space. Han’s insightful sharing of the experience of neurodivergence brings up many excellent examples of those characteristics. (And by the way- why am I switching between the terms disability and difference? To emphasize that our spaces are responsible for some degree of the exclusion that is experienced. We must consider whether our design and operational decisions create obstacles that turn a difference into the experience of a disability.)
It is Kinderpublic’s mission to improve our collective ability to demonstrate social empathy and flexibility, to recognize and implement accommodating design, and the steps that we can all take to include more individuals in public space.
Most importantly, please note that we are using the social model of disability (UNHCR Handout 2 - Models of Disability), one that views difference as a natural part of human diversity and not something to be cured or solved in the individual. This is especially important because we will all experience variations in abilities across our lifetimes.
This is Part 1 of a two part discussion that is packed with information and respect for difference. Thank you for joining us!
[Subway chimes arpeggio played on mandolin]
Cevan, opening interview:
You have another very important area of personal expertise, regarding the accessibility of public space. You recently shared with me that you have gained a lot of clarity around your experiences because of a diagnosis that you came to as an adult. Would you share your diagnosis and the frameworks that you would prefer we use when speaking about it?
Han Malyn:
Yeah! So when I was already in my thirties, so I think it was late 2019 to early 2020, I think was when I got my first diagnosis. That was something I'd suspected for a long time, but never been tested for, which was ADHD.
Cevan:
Mm-hmm. <affirmative>
Han Mayn:
Which has a lot of symptoms outside of what people, you know, traditionally think of. And I didn't get diagnosed because I did well in school. And I was like, well, I did well in school, but I wasn't not writing my homework assignments up my arm so that I would remember them because if I wrote them in a planner, I'd lose the planner.
So there was that.
And then last year, just over a year ago, actually, I was diagnosed as Autistic, which was really life changing for me, in terms of understanding that my brain does work differently than a lot of people's, and therefore, things that have been frustrating or confusing my whole life, there are ways to process that and understand why I was having those experiences.
So I lump both of those things under ‘neurodivergent’. They are two different types of neurodivergence. And generally when I'm talking to people, unless they are people that I trust to not use labels against me, I will just say neurodivergent because there's a lot of stigma behind the term Autistic, even though a much larger percentage of the population is Autistic than people recognize. Because for every person where it deeply affects their life and is highly visible, there is someone like me, who is, you know, has a master's degree and is fairly advanced in my career and has a strong circle of friends and a great spouse, and people don't see people like me and think Autistic, but it does really impact my life in a lot of ways.
And one of those that comes up a lot in public spaces is sensory issues, because a lot of Autistic people have much stronger sense, like sensitivity, in some of their senses than things. So, whether that's visual or audio or touch or smell or taste. And so there are things that can be very overwhelming very fast that other people don't understand. And you will get just treated as like oversensitive or like, “Calm down,” when you are having a very visceral physiological response to something.
And so having that [diagnosis] has really, really helped me understand things like why, you know, sometimes I, like, I lived in New York City for nine years and I was completely fine with the overall sound of the city. That did not bother me at all. But, when there would be sudden noises that really throws me off, like sudden loud noises. And when I'm in a loud setting and people are trying to talk to me, I really struggle to differentiate sounds. And so then that can be very stressful because I can't always understand what's going on, and then I feel like people think I'm not paying attention.
Especially if, for instance, somebody has an accent, and I just am, I'm struggling to understand anything that's going on around me. And then you get up in the mental cycle of, “Oh my god, do they think I'm being racist because I can't tell what they're saying?” <laugh> But, knowing that about myself then gives me the framework too, instead of beating myself up and thinking I should do better, I either take measures to mitigate it or step away when I need to.
I've gotten much better at, you know, being like, “Oh, I'm overwhelmed. I need to go be someplace quiet by myself for a little while,” and advocating for that for myself because that's not always considered something socially acceptable.
And I'm very lucky to now work again at a humanitarian organization where when something comes up, they are supportive of that. So, I had a staff retreat where I made it through the first day, fine, but the second day, there were issues with the loudspeakers or the sound system where there was a lot of sort of screeching and sudden loud jarring noises. And even though they got it under control, it had already kind of set off an overwhelmed response in me.
And I just told my boss, you know, “I need to go back to the hotel. I am overloaded and I can't do this.” And they were just like, “Yep, that's fine. You can go do that.”
But not everybody has that privilege, especially if they don't have diagnoses because a lot of people don't seek them out either because they don't know or because they don't want the label because of the stigma that surrounds it.
We do, as a society, consider Autism to be a disability. That is, when I fill out a, you know, a job application and they're trying to get demographic data, and they ask, you know, self-identify, but are you disabled? And Autism is on the list of things that is considered a disability. And I, for myself, I disagree with that label. I don't think it's a disability. I think my brain works differently. And just because society was, again, built for the majority of the population doesn't mean I'm wrong. I'm just different.
Cevan:
Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>
Han Malyn:
Again, that's a very personal thing. Some people label things disabilities, some don't. I think sometimes that has to do with how much it affects your day-to-day life and think sometimes it has to do with just how you think of yourself.
But, it has made me so much more aware of whether there are accommodations for people who have sensory issues in public spaces. Things like, my spouse and I live about a 30 minute drive from a Six Flags, and so we have season park passes because, why not? We can go wander around and go on one ride, it's free. But we started getting emails this year and they are doing specific sensory days for people that have kids with sensory issues who can't be there on a normal day, so that they can have that experience.
And it made me want to like double down on buying season passes and going there because I was like, that is so cool, because that is a thing that a lot of people don't get to experience. And I think it's a smart business decision, because yeah, there will probably be less people in the parks those days, but you were opening yourself up to a new demographic that wouldn't have come at all before
Cevan:
Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>
Han Malyn:
And, you know, public goodwill, and just illustration of best practices. I've seen other stores that do that too during Covid. There were stores that opened early for people that were immuno-compromised so that you could do your shopping without fear, that sort of thing. And I've noticed that too, when I go to conferences or that sort of thing, again, within the like humanitarian and human rights sphere, they will have things like quiet rooms where you can go be if you need to decompress, whether it's neurodivergence, whether you're prone to migraines, whether you get seizures and need to step away from like bright flashing lights or things that could trigger you.
Because again, there's a wide range of people that have sensory issues that aren't just neurodivergent people. Before I had the diagnosis, I am prone to migraines and one of the things that triggers them is strong smells.
Cevan:
Yep.
Han Malyn:
So I can't go into department stores most of the time, because they all put their makeup and perfume counters right by the door. And I have to, you know, hold my breath and sprint to get to what I want to see if I don't want to get a migraine. Which is just so easy to fix! Like, just put that in a different part of the store. But people that don't have scent triggered issues don't think it's a big deal. And that is a thing that is a problem for people with migraines, for people with allergies, for people with sensory issues. Like, there are a lot of people that affects- pregnant people! Like, I mean there's, there's just a whole range, so things that are temporary, things that are permanent.
Cevan:
Respiratory issues.
Han Malyn:
Exactly.
Han Malyn:
Yeah. There's just, there's just so many. <laugh> And I think, you know, the same thing when people, when it started to be a thing where smoking started to like get outlawed in public spaces more and more and like pushed outside, and a lot of people were angry because they, you know, had their own opinions on like secondhand smoke and whatever. And it's like, well, but it's not just people that are like- yes, it causes cancer- but also it's not just people who are concerned about cancer who can't be in a room where there's cigarettes. There are people with, yeah, chronic respiratory issues who can't breathe if they're in a space where people are smoking, there are people with issues with scent who it will really mess them up.
Cevan:
Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>
Han Malyn:
It's a much broader issue than just the one reason people give. And so I think that having more knowledge and more understanding of how that works, like what things have been a trigger for me and why, and then thinking outside of that in terms of like, “Oh, who else is affected by this,” has really been a life changer for me in terms of how I interact with space and in terms of what I'm aware of in space, both for myself and other people.
So, you know, if I'm going someplace and I invite someone to a bar that I know is gonna be loud and crowded I will say, you know, this is a loud crowded space, so if that's not your thing, we can pick someplace else. Or, you know, just give a heads up.
My very favorite bar in New York is a Gay sing-along show tune piano bar in a basement in the West Village. And I love it with my entire heart, but it is dark, and cramped, and you have a lot of people singing very loudly next to your head for as long as you're there, which is definitely not everybody's thing. And so when I invite people there, I'm very clear about, this is what you're getting into. And if being in a small space with a lot of very loud singing people <laugh> does not sound fun to you, we can do something else.
But just yeah, having that awareness of why I am uncomfortable in some places that I didn't necessarily understand before, and then also that other people might be experiencing that and not speaking up about it because they've been told that they're being dramatic or being oversensitive or that they just need to suck it up.
Cevan:
Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>.
Han Malyn:
Yeah.
Cevan:
Yeah. That's a really good point. We're not encouraged to think about how we're feeling or to be able to put words to that, or to, you know, because we're presented with a lot of spaces as a “typical space” that everyone should be fine in. And it's very hard to give yourself the ability to say, “Wow, I'm not fine in this space.” <laugh>
Han Malyn:
Yeah. And having different needs is treated as a weakness and something you should be able to push through, by people who have not experienced having those needs. Because since they don't understand it, they don't always believe it. It's a thing that comes up with things like food allergies, where you know, people will be dismissive of other people's allergies. Because when they think allergies, they think, oh, you're going sneeze, or your throat's gonna itch. And people are like, “No, I mean, I'm gonna die.”
Cevan:
Right. <laugh> So start dialing 9 1 1.
Han Malyn:
Yeah. It's like, yeah, if you, if you want to rub peanut butter on my face, then be prepared to call an ambulance.
And I think there are things where it is a mix of you have to be responsible for yourself and it is reasonable to expect society to accommodate to some extent. So for instance, with the idea of a peanut allergy, society as a whole shouldn't be like, “Welp, I guess we're never using peanuts in anything ever again.” But labeling what allergens are there, or being open about the fact like, this is a restaurant that uses X, Y, and Z, is so easy to do. Like, menus that label their allergens on them, I will go to those, because I'm allergic to egg and my spouse is allergic to dairy. But we aren't vegan and so we don't just want to strictly go to vegan restaurants just because of that. And so any restaurant that has a guide and they have has labels on like, this contains X, this contains Y, we're going to go to those restaurants. And it's not hard for the restaurants to do that. And it makes it so much easier for people who have to be aware of certain things.
And I think that there tends to be a lot of attitude in our society of like, “Well, you need to deal with your own issues.” And that's really easy to say when all of your issues have already been catered to. And I think people don't realize that their issues have already been catered to because it's just how they're used to things existing, because the world was built for certain types of people. And they're like, “Well, I don't have any issues with things.” And you're like, “Yes, it was planned around you. Things weren't planned around me.”
Cevan:
Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>.
Han Malyn:
And it's, you know, it's the recurring theme of, from a place of privilege, it's hard to see what you're getting that other people aren't.
Cevan:
Thinking about the way that you're describing spaces for people that you're going to meet: like, this is loud, this might be too confined, this might be too bright, this might be too dark. That's a really important point.
And I wonder if you feel generally spaces do a good enough job of advertising the things that they do provide, that allow people to find a more comfortable fit within their space. Like you mentioned, menus, and how restaurants have become very good at saying that they are able to accommodate different food needs.
But are public spaces very good at advertising how they are able to accommodate people in the space, do you feel? Does that make sense?
Han Malyn:
On the whole, no. I would say that it is trending more and more in that direction because the businesses who either, you know, are owned by people who have people in their lives that are affected by things, or who are more aware, are involved in circles where they're aware of these issues, are more and more likely to do so.
And there are, you know, websites like Yelp, and I think Google listings do some of this too, where like users and the people that go there can mark for like accessibility. If I'm on Yelp, I can generally see if some places wheelchair accessible or see if it's good for groups, see if it's good for kids, like that kind of thing.
And I think that I tend to go to businesses that I know are safe. So if you are on some hotel booking websites, you can check for LGBTQ friendly. And even if I haven't had negative experiences someplace else, or haven't heard negative stories about someplace else, I'm likely to book someplace that actively states that they are, because I know that they are aware. And so, you know, it's not a gamble. I mean it's always a gamble, but it's not as much of a gamble. It's not just going somewhere and hoping for the best. And so I think it's an upward trend.
And I do think, unfortunately, that as much as I don't like making things political, it is political. Identities are now political. And I think that there are conservative groups who really push back against any of that happening and considering that catering to other people that aren't like them, “How dare you label allergens for the special snowflakes. They don't really have allergies. They're just weak.”
And so I think that it's really a mixed bag. I think some places are going, are moving in the right direction. Some people are regressing. It depends on where you are, but I am impressed with the number of places that are starting to be more open about that.
Even places that aren't accessible, that are open about it. You know, in New York there are a lot of places where based on when a building was built, they're not required to keep up to the same code, and the places that are like that but acknowledge it so that you don't end up with an event booked someplace that then some of the people turn out, get there and find out they don't have a way in, is less common. And I think that that's important too, like marking where you are accessible and acknowledging where you're not.
Cevan:
Yeah.
Han Malyn:
You know, it's like with foods that mark their allergens that will say ‘made in a plant that also processes X, Y and Z allergens’ because they're acknowledging that some people do have deathly reactions to cross-contamination. And so just because peanuts aren't an ingredient, it doesn't mean that peanuts might not have touched it at some point, I use that as an example just because it's one somewhat common allergy and can kill you.
But I think that, you know, a lot of things are like that, and so acknowledging both your strengths and your weaknesses is really important, and is becoming more common. And I think that for populations that have different needs or different wants, we are likelier to seek out places that do. It's good business sense, in my mind, to do that.
Cevan:
Yeah.
Han Malyn:
You just open yourself up to a million people, and it's just not as much effort as people wanna make out that it is in a lot of cases.
Cevan:
Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> Especially with social media and the presence that many places are already establishing online and maintaining online.
Han Malyn:
Exactly.
Cevan:
You can very quickly post little videos and reels about the atmosphere of your space and different accommodations that you may have, and what they look like. And many people can benefit from seeing an image of a space, and what it looks like when you get there, how you get in, you know, what it'll feel like when you're inside.
Han Malyn:
Absolutely. Absolutely. And it's, you know, everybody has a website.
Cevan:
Yep.
Han Malyn:
Very few businesses don't have a website anymore, outside of, you know, like your bodegas and stuff. I'd be very entertained if my bodegas started having websites, <laugh> but in general, it's like, yeah, if you've got a restaurant, you've got a website, it's very easy to post some pictures. Maybe have a list of what accommodations you do have, mark, you know, like we have single stall non-gendered restrooms. We have an allergen marked menu.
Cevan:
Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>
Han Malyn:
We have accessible bathrooms, just in general, we have stalls for, we still call them disabled stalls, I guess, don't we? But they're obviously for a wide range of people who have different needs of bathroom stalls.
Cevan:
Yes.
Han Malyn:
But just those kinds of things, it's like, you can just have a list.
And then, yeah, having videos, having pictures is also really helpful. I know that I at one point had a group of friends that I would get together and like do bar meetups and I would physically go ahead of time and scope out what their accessibility was, because I had a friend who was a wheelchair user and I wanted to make sure that they could get into the building and use the restroom if they needed to.
But you know, it was because some places do have that listed and some places don't. And so I would need to like go make sure ahead of time. And I think that, you know, not everybody's willing to take that step and will just pick someplace they know is, and so, it's just, again, good business sense to just have that on your website so someone can go, “Oh, okay, cool. That one's up to code for wheelchair users. That is a place that we can pick.”
Cevan:
I was going to ask you next, has your diagnosis caused you to reframe your past experiences, or understand them differently?
Han Malyn:
Yes.
Cevan:
We've touched on that a bit. I don't know if you'd like to add to that.
Han Malyn:
Yeah. No. I mean, yes, it absolutely has. I think that there are a lot of things that I didn't understand about my life that really became clearer. Like I said before, one of them is my reactions to sensory stimuli because it's unpredictable. And, but being overwhelmed with one, then can make another harder.
Cevan:
Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>
Han Malyn:
And knowing that I am, actually, more sensitive to something than other people, so that then, when you look back and you're like, “Well, they weren't bothered by it, so why was I?” It's like, “Well, because you're Autistic. Oh, okay.”
You know, again, I talk about school and things that were problems for me, that people thought were character flaws, that were not.
You know, between the ADHD and the Autism…
Cevan:
Yes. <affirmative>
Han Malyn:
…I never had a desk that was clean inside when we still had desks. I was always the kid whose locker, when you opened it, everything fell on you.
My bedroom- I slept in a bed with my textbooks- and my mom gave up, and just had me clear a path from the bed to the door, so that if the house was on fire, I could get out.
But it was so frustrating, because people would treat it like I was doing that intentionally, and like I was lazy. And I would end up near tears being like, “I am trying my best and I cannot get on top of this. And it feels like a personal failure, and I am doing my best, but I just can't. I just can't.”
And now that I know the diagnoses, and I know that that part is more ADHD than anything, but knowing it's like, yeah, now I'm on medication for ADHD and suddenly I can, you know, tidy my home. I can see that there's laundry on the floor that I just didn't see before. My mom used to joke that I didn't have object permanence, because as soon as I would take a coat off as little kid, it was just gone. And I wasn't doing it maliciously. It genuinely didn't exist to me anymore. <laugh>
Cevan:
Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>
Han Malyn:
But I think that, yeah, there's been a lot of stuff like that. And I think that the Autism, it's been the same thing, where I have strong reactions to things that would make me feel like I was weak or not trying hard enough, and I should just be able to push through X, Y, or Z.
I really struggle with new experiences that are outside my comfort zone. It takes a lot of energy and kind of psyching myself up to do certain types of things. And even down to things like trying a new video game with my spouse. And it used to really hurt his feelings that I would like really struggle to get myself to do that. And understanding that a lot of that comes from a place of Autism and, and struggling with change and struggling with new things, and really gravitating towards comfort media and special interests and things that make you feel safe, helped both of us process that and figure out like how to work with it, and when to push and when not to. And that it wasn't anything personal and it wasn't because I wasn't trying, and...
This past weekend, my parents came to visit. And while they were here, I saw that my bookshelves had been significantly rearranged in terms of like, I keep a lot of tchotchkes and stuff on there, and I had a bit of meltdown about it. And I felt really, really stupid because I was like, this is so silly. It was because we have cleaners come in professionally, because my spouse and I both work full-time and we just at some point acknowledged we don't really have time to do this to the level we'd like to. And we do have the money to pay cleaners, so we're going to let ourselves do that. And they did a great job, but they moved stuff to dust, and they put it back in different places.
And now that I know I'm Autistic, I was able to process that through a lens of like, this is something I put a lot of time into, how I set things up and like, staging and creation of my space, like my personal space is insanely important to me. Like, I put so much thought into how I set my space up. Having somebody move my things and having them not be where I expected them to, really messed with me. And now knowing that that is not just me being, you know, nitpicky and dramatic, that is Autism and how I find safety in spaces.
Even though I was still frustrated, it allowed me to process that and not just be mad at myself about it and be like, you know, embarrassed and beat myself up over the fact that, you know, somebody moved what shelf my vase from my grandma was on, it was like, “Yeah, but I spent half an hour figuring out where I wanted to put that vase.” <laugh>
Cevan:
Right. <laughing>
Han Malyn:
So, things like that, it's been very helpful in understanding what I can control and what I can't, and where there are places where I can make adjustments or where I can seek accommodations. And that that's not unreasonable, or a failure, it's just that I have different needs. So.
Cevan:
Right. And I want to stress again this really important point that you made, that difference is not a character flaw.
Han Malyn:
Yeah.
Cevan:
And disability is not a character flaw. That same mindset is applied to very, very young children with disabilities, the idea that they're not doing what they're expected to do.
Han Malyn:
Yeah.
Cevan:
Because they're being obstinate….
Han Malyn:
Yeah.
Cevan:
…They don't want to, they're stubborn, they're lazy.
These are really, really horrific assumptions to make about someone.
Han Malyn:
Oh yeah, absolutely. Well, I have a lot of friends that are educators and a conversation that's come up in a few spaces is how neurodivergent kids are treated in school and how in a lot of school systems, essentially there is a split and they end up either in Gifted or in Special Ed, depending on how their neurodivergence presents, whether it's disruptive or not. And so for me, I ended up being Gifted because my brain, you know, did math in my sleep, and I have a lot of rejection sensitivity. And so like, upsetting a teacher was not something I was ever going to do. And I followed every rule and like, you know, colored inside the lines
Cevan:
Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>
Han Malyn:
But kids where that wasn't how it worked, where they struggled to sit still, or where they were louder, or where they had too many questions, it's like they just got pushed out and it was like, well, you're too much to deal with, so we're putting you in Special Ed. And so I got a very different educational experience, like, I had options that other people didn't, even though they were probably just as smart as I was, because the way my neurodivergence presented meant that, yeah, I couldn't keep my desk or my locker clean to save my life, but I was going to test at the top of every standardized test that ever came along. because that was just how my brain worked.
Cevan:
Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>.
Han Malyn:
And it's pretty messed up that other people who have the same diagnosis as me are treated like they're not even able to function in society by themselves, because of the label that was put on them, and because of how, at a young age, they were shunted to one side instead of the other.
Cevan:
Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> Yeah. Sigh. Yeah. That was really important. <Laugh>. Thank you.
Yeah, education is another thing I would love to talk to you about another time, but, yeah! <laughing>
[Audio recording of “Tuning Forks on Resonators” demonstration of the interaction of sound waves with physical objects (from the Physical Science Collection at the Smithsonian’s National Museum of American History) begins to play in background]
Cevan:
Thanks for joining us. Be sure to check out our website, kinderpublic.com, for more information about our guest and the topic, as well as a full transcript of the conversation, which can be found on the podcast page. Captioned episodes of all of our interviews are also available on our Youtube channel, where we are @kinderpublic. We are also on Instagram, Facebook, and Twitter!
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I’m Cevan Castle, and my guest has been Han Malyn. Our conversation on neurodivergence will continue in the next episode.
Please take extra care. We’ll see you next week.
[“Tuning Forks on Resonators” fades out]
Works cited in this episode:
Gissen, David. The Architecture of Disability: Building, Cities, and Landscapes Beyond Access. University of Minnesota Press, 2022.
UNHCR. “Handout 2 - Models of Disability.” Disability Inclusion Facilitator’s Guide, United Nations UNHCR, www.unhcr.org/media/handout-2-models-disability. Accessed 6 Nov. 2023.
Mentioned in this episode:
Sounds/Visuals in this episode:
“Tuning Forks on Resonators“ demonstration video of the interaction of sound waves with physical objects, care of the Physical Science Collection at the Smithsonian’s National Museum of American History