S3 Ep026 Empathy, Intersectionality, and Public Space:with Han Malyn, Pt2
Han Malyn (they/them) returns to discuss safety and accessibility for women and gender minorities in public space. They advocate for the use of intersectionality, empathy, and non-defensive listening for decision makers in making design and operational recommendations. We discuss:
How women and gender minorities are marginalized by the way we design and operate public space;
Why failing to ensure the safety and dignity of all people in public space can impact our own experience of inclusion;
How the history of curb cuts reveals that we are having the wrong conversations about the design of public bathrooms;
The specific steps we can all take to improve accessibility and safety.
Bio:
Han (they/them) has worked and volunteered in the nonprofit sector for 15+ years across a broad range of sectors, including visual arts, arts education, the LGBTQI+ community, human rights, and ending poverty. They are based in the greater DC area.
“I listened to a podcast, I think it was an episode of 99% Invisible, that was about curbs, and where at corners there are the ramps down and up, and how now it's like those are common in every community because people use them for strollers, they use them for rolling suitcases, they use them for wagons, whatever. But initially, those were fought for by disability rights communities because people in wheelchairs couldn't get places…. so that was initially designed as an accessibility feature for people with different medical needs, I guess. But then that went on to be just a public good that people don't even necessarily know that that's where that originated.”
-Han Malyn
Transcript
Season 3, Episode 26 (Part 2 of 4) Empathy, Intersectionality, and Public Space with Han Malyn
Han Malyn (they/them):
I listened to a podcast, I think it was an episode of 99% Invisible, that was about curbs, and where at corners there are the ramps down and up, and how now it's like those are common in every community because people use them for strollers, they use them for rolling suitcases, they use them for wagons, whatever. But initially, those were fought for by disability rights communities because people in wheelchairs couldn't get places…. so that was initially designed as an accessibility feature for people with different medical needs, I guess. But then that went on to be just a public good that people don't even necessarily know that that's where that originated.
[Rhythmic sounds of electric train pulling into station]
[Subway chimes arpeggio played on mandolin]
Cevan Castle, host:
Welcome to Towards a Kinder Public, a podcast dedicated to designing kinder public space that better meets our interconnected needs. I’m Cevan Castle, and along with Annie Chen, we are Kinderpublic.
We are so fortunate to share another part of this discussion with Han Malyn, who has worked and volunteered in the nonprofit sector for over 15 years, across a broad range of areas, including visual arts, arts education, the LGBTQI+ community, human rights, and ending poverty.
Han uses the pronouns they/them, I use the pronouns she/her.
In this episode, we’ll discuss how women and gender minorities are marginalized by the way we design and operate public space; why failing to ensure the safety and dignity of all people in public space can impact our own experiences of inclusion; how the history of curb cuts reveals that we are having the wrong conversations about the design of public bathrooms; and specific steps we can all take to improve accessibility and safety.
Before we jump into the interview, I want to preface this with an explanation of why I applied the medical model of disability to our discussion about gender, and the ubiquitous, standard design of the “male”/”female”, multi-occupant, partitioned public bathroom. In fact, regardless of who they are designated for by door signage, public restrooms are highly gender-unspecific due to the lack of accommodations for pregnant, lactating, breastfeeding, menstruating, miscarrying, child-caring, menopausing bodies (and that list is just for a start), in favor of an efficient standard partition format.
Just as the standardized partition format mostly ignores difference, the medical model seeks to “cure” or resolve difference, and make body experience as much the same as possible, following a standard that is determined to be “correct” or “ideal’.
In contrast, the social model of disability considers the creation of barriers to access in the ways that we design and operate our spaces. The social model sees difference as a natural part of human diversity. The United Nations Human Rights Council describes the social model this way:
“Disability is recognized as the consequence of the interaction of the individual with an environment that does not accommodate that individual’s differences. Under the Social Model, the focus is on removing barriers so that persons with disabilities have the same opportunities to participate as others.”
So, we can consider the barriers to participation faced by other kinds of human diversity- like gender- to have been constructed by prioritizing one so-called “standard” body experience. As Han points out, the “standard” body experience that our society is built around is the typically-abled, straight, cis-gendered, only-responsible-for-himself male experience.
This is so reductive and insufficient that it fails, for many of us, to capture the experience of even the same individual’s body across one month.
But here’s the really interesting thing- regardless of our personal identity, the one change in our status that we can all expect to encounter- in terms of accessibility- is aging, and all of the body and ability changes that come along with that process.
And this is why working towards accommodation- meaning, towards safety, dignity, and inclusion for all- will benefit us all. If we fail to design for difference, we’ll have to accept the consequences of our own inflexibility.
This episode is rated clean for language, but we are providing a content advisory. For survivors, the LGBTQI+ community, and parents, be advised that there is reference to male violence and assault. Please listen with some discretion, but we are so glad that you joined us!
[Subway chimes arpeggio played on mandolin]
Cevan, opening interview:
As we jump back into the conversation, we are speaking about women, and gender minorities, and queer people, and do these groups share any overlapping needs?
Han Malyn:
I do think that there are a lot of overlaps in terms of needs and challenges, because all of the people that can fall under any of those categories are marginalized communities, because our country and our society was set up for cisgendered white men. And, straight cisgendered white men.
Cevan:
Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>
Han Malyn:
And so anything that falls outside of that, you are going to face things that were not designed for you, and you are going to face people who don't like you and think that you don't deserve rights or access based on who you are.
So, yeah. So I think that there is, there's a lot of overlap. And also a lot of nuance to the conversation because obviously people can check one box or a ton of boxes or no boxes, and still face some or all, or, of the various things that come up with being part of a marginalized community. So…
Cevan:
Mm-Hmm. <affirmative> Thank you.
Can you talk about the importance of queer accessible and safe spaces?
Han Malyn:
Yeah. So, as with, again, any marginalized community, there's sort of an awareness that there's never really been safety that is part of existing in the world. And so having spaces where you can truly feel safe and comfortable and not have to have your guard up all the time is so important. For mental health, for physical health, for sense of community, little things that people who don't experience it don't think about.
You know, like, are you safe holding hands with your partner in public? Can you use the bathroom and not worry about the police being called on you or about people harassing you? Are you just able to, you know, dress the way you want, present the way you want, in a public space, without getting harassed or attacked?
And so having spaces where you can, having places where you genuinely feel like you don't have to really worry about it, is so valuable. It's so validating. And I don’t know if comforting is exactly the right word, but sort of, to go into spaces where I know that there are other people like me who understand my experience, who are making sure that it is, it is safe to be there, or even if they aren't like me, that they understand that there are people who aren't like them and that need of different things than they do, and are open to that and aren't going to judge and aren't going to attack, or try to talk you into being somebody that you're not.
Yeah. I mean, it's just, the right to be is something that a lot of people take for granted.
Cevan:
Mm-hmm. <affirmative>
Han Malyn:
But it's not a given.
Cevan:
Right. I just want bring back this, a portion of this discussion we were having about safety being something, or a lack of safety being something that groups can share. And that social aggression, a sort of attitude of social aggression towards other people can impact everyone if it's tolerated.
Han Malyn:
Yeah.
Cevan:
And so everyone has a vested interest in making sure that that is not the character of our public. <laugh>
Han Malyn:
Yeah, absolutely.
I talk to people a lot about “circles of empathy,” because I think everybody kind of has their threshold of how far out their empathy extends, some people it's just themselves, and they're…
Cevan:
Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>
Han Malyn:
…You know, self-centered, narcissistic people. Some people, it's their immediate circle, it's their close friends and their close family, and they can't really see outside of that. So they protect those people and not further out.
Some people, it's their full community.
Some people, it's the world.
Cevan:
Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>
Han Malyn:
It just depends on how you view things and what your personal values are. But I think that people don't realize that if you are only protecting people within your circle and aren't looking outside of that, you don't know when it's going to hit your circle…
Cevan:
Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>
Han Malyn:
…Because things change over time.
And, you know, we kind of talked about the “first they come for x,” I don't even remember who wrote that, but it's, it's old, I think it was around Nazi era, the first Nazi era, that that was talked about. But it's the same thing. You know, we're seeing attacks on trans people and gender nonconforming people. We're seeing attacks on women.
But it slides, and if you look the other way and don't protect people that are different than you, there is no one left to protect you when it comes to you. So, even if you only care about your own safety, you should still care about the safety of others.
I'm a person who, my circle of empathy is the entire world, which is why I do the kinds of work that I do. But I think that a lot of people don't recognize that even if it doesn't affect you directly now, it can later.
Cevan:
Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>
Han Malyn:
So, yeah. Recognizing that, just because it's not you now doesn't mean it won't be soon.
Cevan:
Right. Right. Yeah.
I'm really interested in the ways that our identities can converge with locations to create different conditions and experiences. And several podcasts ago, I spoke with a friend of mine who is a dad, and for reasons of gender and athletic abilities, he might be considered an individual who is typically privileged in his access to public space. But this friend has organized family and work life with his spouse so that he is actually the primary caregiver of their young child in their family. So his role steps outside of conventional gender expectations.
When I spoke to him about the accessibility of public space for dads with small children, it seemed to me that he forfeited some of the privileges he could typically expect when he stepped into a role that was conventionally and historically performed by women.
When thinking about improving accessibility, are we right to be talking about accommodating categories of people based on biological or medical model thinking? And I'm, I want to clarify, this is an idea that I'm working on, and I feel like that's what we're doing. We're we're…
Han Malyn:
Yeah.
Cevan:
…Using a very medical sort of lens to look at how we're defining these spaces.
Or should we really be talking about broadening the social expectations and rethinking things by taking a close look at how we must all do much more in public space than is ever accounted for by our built environment. And we must take on more rules than is ever accounted for <laugh> in thinking through those spaces. And our bodies are different. Our bodies may be doing different things on different days, and we are all aging.
And so, does this question somehow bring us right back to the importance of queer spaces?
Han Malyn:
I would say, yeah. I mean, I think that because there is such a spectrum and an overlap… you know, I listened to a podcast, I think it was an episode of 99% Invisible, that was about curbs, and where at corners there are the ramps down and up, and how now it's like those are common in every community because people use them for strollers, they use them for rolling suitcases, they use them for wagons, whatever. But initially, those were fought for by disability rights communities because people in wheelchairs couldn't get places. They'd get to a street corner and get stuck in some places. And so that was initially designed as an accessibility feature for people with different medical needs, I guess. But then that went on to be just a public good that people don't even necessarily know that that's where that originated.
And I think that that is, you know, very similar in other places when you've got water fountains that are high and low, the low ones are for kids, but they're also for people who are lower to the ground for various reasons, medical or otherwise. When you've got handrails, they are for older people, they're for people with mobility issues, they're for small kids. There's a lot of things like that, that are relevant to multiple communities regardless of whether it is because of something that you were born with, or an injury, or because of just how you use space based on who you are as a person.
And so I think that a lot of the things that we consider, like quote unquote accommodations are just things that should be the norm.
Single stall restrooms….
Cevan:
Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>
Han Malyn:
You know, that's, from a gender rights space, that is a huge issue. But so many people don't think about the fact that single stall bathrooms benefit everybody.
Cevan:
Right.
Han Malyn:
They benefit people who have kids, who need to go change their kid and don't want to like, don’t want pushback on changing a child in public because often there aren't access to changing tables.
Single stall restrooms are helpful for people who are in wheelchairs, or who have health issues that make using a public bathroom really uncomfortable for them, either physically or emotionally….
Cevan:
Right.
Han Malyn:
…For people who don't feel safe in large public spaces, for whatever reason.
They do, they just benefit everyone. There's no reason not to have them. Other than that it's not as cost efficient in some places as building one big thing.
But the pushback is, people use trans identities as a way to justify not having something that would benefit everybody. And actuall, their own arguments go against what they say because they say, well, you know, we don't want men in the women's bathroom, and well, they're women, but too, if they're single stall, you don't have to worry about it because there is only one person going into that bathroom. Like…
Cevan:
Exactly.
Han Malyn:
…It helps across the board. And so I think that there are a lot of things like that where you might start from a biological or medical lens, but that it really goes further than that.
And I think that thinking about that in the opposite direction is also important. Yeah. Like, you know, there are things that we probably should consider that just make everyone's lives easier regardless of there being, like, specific reasons you quote “need the change” or not, that just make it easier to exist in public spaces for everybody.
And I think that a lot of reasons people don't do those things is because of cost, because capitalism is fun.
But then they use sort of the excuse of, well, it's only for “X” people and we shouldn't have to cater to them, as the reason to not make changes that are just common sense.
Cevan:
Right. Exactly. And we're having the completely wrong conversation. I appreciate you saying that.
And I think it might be very uncomfortable for some people to acknowledge that we, you know, do havethese interconnected needs. <laughing> So… <sigh> Ok.
What are the things we should be doing to improve access and safety in public space for women, gender minorities and queer people?
And I would just like to add that this friend of mine that I talked to was not using men's bathrooms, even if they were outfitted with a diaper changing station, because he did not want his child to be in a men's room. So…
Han Malyn:
Yeah.
Cevan:
…This is something that we're going to unpack. <laugh>
Han Malyn:
Yeah.
Cevan:
But, so what are the things that we should be doing to improve equitable access and safety in public space?
Han Malyn:
I mean, one, I think is, outside of a “design and changing things that cost money” lens, is situational awareness. Paying attention to the people around you, to what's going on, to what you're seeing, whether people are having trouble, whether people seem like they don't feel safe, whether you're seeing somebody getting harassed or any number of things. I think that, you know, we as a society need to watch out for each other and offer help when needed. You know, never force your help on somebody, but offering is always good.
This is a thing that got talked about a lot in the wake of the 2016 election when there was a real rise in hate crimes against people of Color, specifically brown populations. And there were a lot of sort of trainings from like white ally groups, in terms of situational awareness and bystander intervention training. And like, how do you de-escalate, how do you check in? How do you make sure that people are safe?
And I think that it's good that that happened and also sad that that was what it took to make that happen. Because I think that, you know, all of us at some point or another have been helped by a stranger, whether it was because we were in danger or just because we were struggling.
And you see it everywhere from, you know, someone offering to help me get a table up the stairs at the subway when I was, you know, 24 and trying to carry a table I bought on Craigslist on my back from Midtown to Sunset Park, or, you know, people filming when Black people get stopped by police to make sure that there's a record of what is happening should something happen.
And I think that those are all on the same spectrum of making sure that where you are, you are looking out for your community and for the people around you.
And then from the perspective of like, you know, “built things and access in a physical sense,” I think that good lighting and places that are publicly visible are two really high on the list ones that people don't often think about.
You know, going to use a restroom in a dark corner of a bar where no one can see around the corner is very different than using a bathroom that's in a well-lit area where a lot of people are coming and going and somebody will see somebody going after you.
Cevan:
Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>
Han Malyn:
Things like that, where if you're not somebody who has had to worry for your safety, you don't necessarily think about it.
You often hear stories where women, or female perceived people, or visibly queer people will share experiences of, you know, crossing the street when somebody is walking near them. And, often, cis men would be offended by that idea. But if something happens, we're held responsible saying, well, why were you doing “X”? Why weren't you doing “Y”?
And I think that there are things like that, that people just don't think about if they aren't the ones that are frequently in danger, because why would you, necessarily? Unless somebody told you.
And I know that I've been very guilty of that in communities that I'm not a part of, in terms of communities of Color, in terms of disability communities that aren't ones that I am part of, where it's just things you don't think about until somebody tells you this is a problem.
And so I think having those larger conversations on things like, where do people feel unsafe? Instead of getting defensive and saying, well, not all people are like that. It's like, okay, well, what can we do to make sure that those circumstances are less likely to occur?
Cevan:
Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>
Han Malyn:
Because, why not have preventative measures if you can? Like, there's just, other than again, cost prohibition, there's no real reason to not just make sure that you've got that kind of thing: good lighting, presence of people, not necessarily security, but having space monitors when you've got a space that's being used for public events and things. Having somebody from an outside perspective there just to keep an eye on things, I think that can all be really key.
Cevan:
Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>
All too often the people who are dominating this discussion regarding safety and accessibility are people that represent one point of view.
Han Malyn:
Exactly.
[Audio recording of “Tuning Forks on Resonators” demonstration of the interaction of sound waves with physical objects (from the Physical Science Collection at the Smithsonian’s National Museum of American History) begins to play in background]
Cevan:
Thanks for joining us. Be sure to check out our website, kinderpublic.com, for more information about our guest and the topic, as well as a full transcript of the conversation, which can be found on the podcast page. A captioned episode is also available on our Youtube channel, where we are @kinderpublic.
If you have enjoyed an episode of Towards a Kinder Public, we would love your help in sharing the episode with others. Please also consider leaving us a rating and a review, it helps us make our topics more visible, and we really appreciate your support.
I’m Cevan Castle, my guest has been Han Malyn. Our conversation will continue in the next episode. Please take extra care. We’ll see you next week.
[“Tuning Forks on Resonators” fades out]
Mentioned in this episode:
Sounds/Visuals in this episode:
“Tuning Forks on Resonators“ demonstration video of the interaction of sound waves with physical objects, care of the Physical Science Collection at the Smithsonian’s National Museum of American History