S2 Ep013 Music, Architecture, & the Culture of America’s Oldest Folk Music Listening Room: with Sarah Craig, Executive Director of Caffe Lena, Pt1
Sarah Craig, Executive Director of Caffe Lena, the famous historic live music listening room in Saratoga Springs, New York shares insights about the interdependent relationship of music and architecture at the oldest continuously operating folk music venue in the United States. We learn:
The uniquely American music type that was reinvigorated in response to over-commercialization, and influenced the development of a distinct architectural form;
5 details of Caffe Lena’s interior architecture that meaningfully impact the relationship between audience members and performers;
The most terrifying question to consider when renovating a beloved historic music venue;
What the intensive building restoration taught Sarah Craig about the most important elements in the experience of live music and a thriving community.
Bio:
Sarah earned her BA in Psychology and Women’s Studies from the University of Vermont, where she developed organizing skills as an activist on campus and in Burlington. Before taking the reins at Caffè Lena in 1995, she served as a fundraiser then Executive Director for the Massachusetts state branch of Peace Action, a nationwide, grassroots citizen’s lobby. Sarah seeks to carry forward Lena Spencer’s dedication to community service through music, creating friendships, careers and harmonious connection. She has contributed articles to national music publications, freely offers herself as a mentor to emerging artists and presenters, and shares her experience as a panelist at conferences in the USA and Canada. Sarah lives in rural Shushan, NY where she gardens, runs, writes novels, and reads avidly about ecology, theology, psychology and social justice.
“There are things that I've learned over time, or started to understand over time, about how the space influences the experience here and shapes the music. But there's a lot of mystery in it too that I don't entirely understand. But…one challenge that we have in the world today is that people are living in communities that are of an unnatural size. It's hard for us to have the depth of relationship with people when we're removed from them, either by technology or when we're in such a constant flux of people.” -Sarah Craig
Transcript
Season 2, Episode 13 (Part 1) : Music, Architecture, and the Culture of America’s Oldest Folk Music Listening Room: with Sarah Craig, Executive Director of Caffe Lena
Sarah Craig, Executive Director of Caffe Lena:
There are things that I've learned over time, or started to understand over time, about how the space influences the experience here and shapes the music. But there's a lot of mystery in it too that I don't entirely understand. But…one challenge that we have in the world today is that people are living in communities that are of an unnatural size. It's hard for us to have the depth of relationship with people when we're removed from them, either by technology or when we're in such a constant flux of people.
[Rhythmic sounds of electric train pulling into station]
[Subway chimes arpeggio played on mandolin]
Cevan Castle, Host:
This is “Towards a Kinderpublic,” a podcast exploring issues in public space, and ways to achieve a kinder public space that better meets our interconnected needs. I’m Cevan Castle, and along with Annie Chen, we are Kinderpublic.
My guest today is Sarah Craig, Executive Director of the historic Caffe Lena, the famous live music listening room in Saratoga Springs, New York. Caffe Lena is the oldest continuously operating folk music venue of its type in the United States. The Library of Congress calls Caffe Lena “an American treasure,” it is represented in the archives of the Smithsonian Institution, and has been recognized by the GRAMMY Foundation for contributions to American music.
For people interested in architecture and interior spaces, Caffe Lena is a fascinating look at the relationship between music, community building, social and political movements, and the built environment. It is a venue type that developed alongside a music culture that valued shared craft and human connection. The songs are steeped in life experience. We’ll learn more about the architectural details and culture of the space that together reflect this history, as well as Caffe Lena’s commitment to artists into the future.
The beautifully renovated, now fully accessible historic second floor space is as vibrant as ever while celebrating 63 years of operation this year.
At the end of this episode, enjoy a recording from a recent live performance of Valerie and Benedict Turner playing a tribute to Mississippi John Hurt, one of the legendary musicians rediscovered during the American folk revival, when Caffe Lena first opened its doors.
[Subway chimes arpeggio played on mandolin]
Cevan, opening interview:
Sarah Craig, thank you so much for joining us today. I'm really excited to talk to you.
Sarah Craig:
I'm excited to talk to you too, because I think that your interest in Caffe Lena is just a little bit different than many of the conversations that I've had about the venue, which are kind of entirely about music. And you're very interested in the physical space, and I'm really excited to talk about that.
Cevan:
We are really interested in your physical space, and also the way that you connect with the community around you and the surrounding business district. It's really a fascinating relationship. For people who are not familiar with Caffe Lena, can you explain a little bit about what Caffe Lena is and its historical significance?
Sarah Craig:
Sure. I would love to do that. So, Caffe Lena is in Saratoga Springs, New York. It's a live music listening room. And more than that, as we will talk about as we go through. The reason that it's so significant is that it started in 1960 at the peak of what was called the Folk Revival, which was a music trend or movement, I think you would call it, that was kind of in response to the over commercialization of music during the 1950s, when it started to feel maybe a little detached from the heritage of music in this country. And so, mostly out of colleges, there were students and researchers who got really interested in the roots of American music and started going out and poking around in the countryside and exploring. And a lot of that happened in the South, people going out with tape recorders and taping the musicians that hadn't been heard from for a long time and bringing them up to Northeast college campuses, and later, coffee houses, to start performing some of the old traditional music of this country that really kind of holds the story of the American people.
And then, that, you know, inspired a generation of new music makers who then began to take some of those influences and create new, more popular music based on that. And the reason that Caffe Lena is significant is because it's really the last holdout from that era. It's the only venue, of one of many at the time, that has been in continuous operation ever since. And so therefore, it holds a very special place in American music history.
These days, as a lot of time has passed- we're just celebrating our 63rd anniversary this month- it remains a stage, and I think always will be a stage, that people want to play because it's unique. It's a room where a lot of their heroes have played, the people who shaped what American music is today. And when performers stand on the stage in the same space that was stood on by their heroes, they talk a lot about how that inspires them to put on some of the best performances they've ever put on. They just want to do right by the legacy of this place.
So, who are those heroes? I mean, there are people that have become household names that played here when they were just starting out and getting to be public figures. The one that we're probably best known for is Bob Dylan. This was the first venue that he played when he started expanding beyond the Greenwich Village folk scene. It was his first touring gig, and he played here a couple of weekends in the early sixties. And Emmylou Harris did, Arlo Guthrie did when he was just starting out. And Pete Seeger was not a newcomer to the music scene, but he considered the place important enough that he came and played here. And then, at the same time, during the early sixties, there were a lot of people of massive influence on American music today, like even the Rolling Stones or the Grateful Dead, you know, bands like that, would consider these people to be extremely influential, but they're not really known to the public so much, but they played here.
And that would be people like Mississippi John Hurt and Clarence Ashley, who was, you know, a mountain fiddler, and Skip James, who was also like John Hurt, a Mississippi Delta Blues player. And then there were women like Jean Ritchie and Hazel Dickens who came from coal mining areas and did a lot of ballad singing, very important figures. And so that started to pass forward to people like Don McLean and then, you know, Ani DiFranco. And then, you know, the people that we have on our stage today, like Allison Russell and Amythyst Kiah and Sunny War. And so our job as a venue, as a holder of this heritage, is to keep that chain strong and never ending, and to continually reinvent what this music is, and reinvent it for a new generation. And to be a place where people can find their voice and share their songs.
Cevan:
The story of Caffe Lena's location, the second floor space with the signature brick wall and shuttered windows looking out over the narrow street is so interesting. The location of the cafe and the character of the interior have a lot of significance in terms of the experience of the music. From your perspective, what are the key elements of this space, and how does the architecture and interior relate to the musicians and the audience?
Sarah Craig:
Yeah, that is such a fascinating question. And I think there are things that I've learned over time or started to understand over time about how the space influences the experience here and shapes the music. But there's a lot of mystery in it too that I don't entirely understand. But one thing that… I read very widely- ecology and theology and philosophy and, you know, different political types of movements- one thing that I think I've heard from a lot of different directions is that one challenge that we have in the world today is that people are living in communities that are of an unnatural size. You know, that we encounter too many people. It's hard for us to have the depth of relationship with people when we're removed from them, either by technology or when we're in such a constant flux of people. Whether we move for our careers, we're separated from our families and all of that.
And a lot of people will say that the natural size that resonates with what a human animal is, is, you know, like 100 to 200 people. Well, our performance space holds 110. And I do think that that is part of what makes it feel like home to people and helps them let down their guard when they come through the door. It's also what I think makes the performers on stage feel like they are genuinely connecting with people, because it's the right number of people.
Another thing that I think is important is that people share tables here when they come to a show. So what the room looks like, is it's a rectangle with a stage in the corner, and then there's a room full of small round wooden tables surrounded by chairs.
And those tables have been in this room since the place opened in 1960. They've been our furniture from the start. And it's always a little bit of a surprise to people when they come for the first time. And you know, we'll say, here's your table. And they'll say, but there are already people sitting there and we say, you're sharing it with them, and they sit down <laugh> and, you know it for people who have been here before you see it start immediately, “Hi, my name's Bob. This is my wife Mary. We live here in Saratoga. Where, you know, what's your name? Where are you from?” And people get into the spirit of that really quickly because I think that that's what people really want life to be like.
And I think what's unnatural is for us to walk into a coffee shop with, you know, one person at each four person table with their laptop open and their headphones on in their zone doing their work. And you walk around with your cup of coffee, feeling like there are no seats available, but there are actually three seats available at pretty much every table. And, if you just plunk down and join somebody, you will usually find that that laptop closes and the headphones go in the backpack and they leave pretty quickly because it's just not part of the culture of that place. But at Caffe Lena, it is part of the culture to share tables and people just relish it.
Another thing that I think is kind of unique about our venue is that it's on the second floor, it's not at street level. And I have spent a long time wondering if that's a good thing or a bad thing, because I do think that it creates a certain amount of mystery about the space. You can't just stand there and peek in the window and see if your kind of people are in there or if they're not, or what's going on.
And people can be a little bit hesitant about coming up and, you know, they don't wanna get in the way, they don't wanna do the wrong thing. They don't wanna embarrass themselves. And so, that invisibility from the street is I think a challenge for a lot of people in terms of exploring.
But, once you get over it and you come in and you're in the space, you feel like you're in a space that's removed. It's like a world apart from everything that's going on out there. You've entered it, you know, something that feels different in, in time and everything. And so, it's an advantage and a disadvantage.
Another thing that I think is interesting about our space is in folk music, what you're really trying to do is break down that barrier between the audience and the stage. Okay, so it's not like, you know, a bar room where somebody's playing music in the corner and everybody just talks over them and kind of ignores them, but it adds something to the atmosphere. And it's definitely not like a formal concert home where the person is behind lights. They can't see the audience at all. They know the audience is out there when people applaud. But they are there to put on their show, and it is the same show wherever they go. And they are seen as entirely separate from the audience. They have a talent that, you know, that’s almost unapproachable. And so with folk music, there's a certain amount of back and forth between the audience and the seats. It's a listening room, so nobody's talking over the music. Everybody is here to hear the show and their full attention is on the stage.
But, there's a lot of storytelling. There's a lot of sighs, there's a lot of laughter. There are sing alongs sometimes. There's sometimes a question shouted up to the stage, and the stage is not too high. You know, the stage puts the performer a little bit above the audience so that everybody can see what's going on, but it's not meant to put them almost behind a wall, you know, so that there's just a difference there. It’s meant to create interaction.
And then the last thing that I would point to in our room is that we made a lot of choices to have the look and feel of the room be very organic. So there's a lot of natural wood. The colors are very warm. The tabletops reflect the generosity of some of our donors where people who made very significant donations to the cafe have their name on the table and a song lyric of their choice. And in a lot of places that would be a brass plaque that's engraved by a professional. But at our place it was woodburned into the top of the table by an artist, you know, by hand. And the letters are very handmade looking, and there's artwork on the walls that's really interesting and unique. And so, just, wanting to show handcraft, not just on the stage, but throughout the space as part of the design of it.
Cevan:
<affirmative> And that handcrafted organic feeling that you're talking about on the top of the tables and so forth, really sits so nicely with the brick wall, the textured wall. It's really a beautiful space. It's beautifully done. And everything about it is so warm and inviting once you get there, like you said.
Sarah Craig:
You know, what you just said actually reminded me of, well maybe we'll, we'll talk about it later because I think that you want to talk a little bit about some of the changes we've made to the space lately, but don't let me forget to talk about just the sound of it because that's very important too.
Cevan:
Okay great, I will make sure to ask you about that! And yes, I wanted to talk about the restoration, which was an urgent and large project that was accomplished under your leadership. Can you talk about the restoration and the way that you were able to preserve the recognizable atmosphere and the experience of the music while taking on such a significant interior renovation? And, you've already touched on some of those things, but we'd love to hear more. And also about the sound.
Sarah Craig:
Sure. Yeah. So the biggest part of the project was actually the part that you don't really see. And you know, a person with your background fully understands that the most urgent need was actually to deal with the structure of the building because the city of Saratoga, the engineers had become concerned about the integrity of the strength of the building. What would happen if there was a fire? How well would it hold up in a situation like that? So, they were not willing to let us continue without making some major structural improvements. So we started, you know, with the foundations, and the parapets on the building were just crumbling, bricks literally falling off into the alley. And that all had to be repaired. All of the brick work throughout had to be repointed.
We put steel beams under the first floor and we had to put steel beams under the roof. So the whole roof came off the building and we put a new roof on. And during that time, while we were under renovation, you know, like I mentioned at the top of this interview, we are the longest continuously operating folk venue in the country. We were like, oh, man, does this count as taking a break? We don't want that to happen. So <laugh>, what we did was, like, we, obviously, we were out of our space for about six months. We were under the knife for about three months while we were able to still be in the space.
But, during that six month period, um, we used various community spaces all over the area, like lots of different churches. We were over at Saratoga Arts, there was a barn that we used. And one of the most challenging spaces that we worked out of was this marble clad former chapel that was now kind of the community room of a retirement home. And, it was a very acoustically challenging space. But, it was really interesting to me as we went to these different places, they all had a capacity of about a hundred people, that everywhere we went, it felt like Caffe Lena with that music, and the right people, and the right number of people. It felt like Caffe Lena, wherever we went. And that was a really big wake up call for me about the degree to which people were creating the space as opposed to the space creating the people. You know what I mean?
So I think it really goes back and forth, but it gave me a new appreciation of how much the audience itself brings to the space. It's not about what we create, it's not about what the professionals create. It's about what we all create together. And I think it gave us a chance as an organization to show that we were just unstoppable. You know, we were very innovative, very scrappy, and that served us well in years to come.
And so our space consisted of the performance space, a little kitchen and a tiny dressing room off of it, an office, some storage, and then a black box theater. And it's really two buildings that have a pathway between them. They kind of look like one building, but are actually two buildings.
And so we had a lot of tough decisions to make about how to use these two spaces. And we discovered that when we brought things up to code, when we, for example, were going to put in handicap accessible restrooms, we would've gone from what was then an 85 seat venue down to a 47 seat venue. And 47 seats is simply not enough to sustain the quality of music that we want to offer. So we had to make the tough decision to let go of the black box theater, which historically had been a very important part of the place, partly because our founder Lena Spencer was an actress. And that was really her favorite part of the whole thing.
And it really brought home this thing that's so scary about renovating precious spaces like ours: what holds the magic? You know, what is it? Is it the physical things? How easy is it to replicate if you get rid of the bricks? Does that make it not Caffe Lena anymore? You know, these were the kind of questions we were having to ask ourselves. And so, letting go of that theater was really tough, but it enabled us to move our kitchen into that space, have a dressing room that was really separate from the performance space, have more office space.
Oh my goodness, that has so many ramifications for the business! For example, having a kitchen that's more sound separated from the space allows the volunteers, it's mostly volunteer staff on, on weekend nights to talk to each other during the show, they didn't used to be able to do that in the old kitchen, they had to whisper and just, you know, be very silent about everything. And so now volunteers have formed bands, musical bands together. They get together to go hiking. They get together for parties at each other's houses. I think that there's more comradery and deeper relationships among the volunteers than there had been, for a while.
And having a dressing room that has its own private bathroom means that we can book different people because you couldn't really ask, um, you know, the illustrious Judy Collins to stand in line with the rest of the customers, to take her turn in the restroom, you know, in the old cafe, which is what would've been the case. So now we can have more private quarters for the performers. They can warm up before the show without kind of giving away what they're going to be doing. And having more office space means that we've been enabled to add more programming and have the staff needed to support it. So, the business, in ways that we hadn't expected, has grown tremendously since the renovation.
Cevan:
That's really interesting. I love the story about the volunteers and the relationships forming in a quieter kitchen.
Sarah Craig:
Yeah.
Cevan:
What a great unintended consequence.
Sarah Craig:
Yeah, for sure.
Cevan:
As you mentioned, Caffe Lena is the oldest continuously operating folk music venue in the United States, which you managed to preserve… a title which you managed to preserve through this incredible renovation process. <laugh>
Sarah Craig:
Right. <laugh>
[“Avalon My Home Town” written by Mississippi John Hurt and performed by Valerie and Benedict Turner at Caffe Lena fades into background]
Cevan:
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Links to more information about the guests and topics mentioned, as well as a full transcript of the conversation, are available on the podcast section of our website, kinderpublic.com. Follow us on instagram, facebook, and twitter! We are @kinderpublic.
I’m Cevan Castle, our guest has been Sarah Craig, Executive Director of Caffe Lena. Join us next week to hear part 2 of this conversation. Here is the Mississippi John Hurt’s song “Avalon My Home Town” played by Valerie and Benedict Turner, live from Caffe Lena’s benefit for the Mississippi John Hurt Foundation. I wish you a good week!
[“Avalon My Home Town” plays to end of song, followed by audience applause]