S2 Ep012 Designing for Access: Preservation, Representation & Neuroscience with Dr. Rose Perry & Rajiv Fernandez, Co-Founders of Historicons, Pt2
The co-founders of Historicons, a trained architect working in social and political issues and published children’s author, and a research scientist with a Ph.D. in Neuroscience and Physiology, return in part 2 to speak in more depth about:
Why deliberately obscuring historical figures and facts is not a new problem.
How the preservation of historic buildings gives us a misleading view of past disability accommodations.
What the Curb Cut Effect is and what it tells us about designing better public space.
What neuroscience knows about diversity in representation and its effects on child development.
“When I watched the Crip Camp documentary on Netflix, it was such a moment for me and my
personal development, honestly, just learning about Kitty Cone and Judy Huemann and the
Black Panthers, everyone who came together to bring about civil rights protection for people
with disabilities.
But then that sparked me going down an entire rabbit hole, right? Because I was actually really
angry, it's like, “Why had I never learned about this before?” And I saw other folks online
lamenting similarly, like, “Why did we not learn about this before?” So yeah, I bought every book
I could find on disability history.”
-Rose Perry, co-founder Historicons
Transcript
Season 2 Episode 012, Part 2 - Designing for Access: Preservation, Representation & Neuroscience with Dr Rose Perry & Rajiv Fernandez, Co-Founders of Historicons
When I watched the Crip Camp documentary on Netflix, it was such a moment for me and my personal development, honestly, just learning about Kitty Cone and Judy Huemann and the Black Panthers, everyone who came together to bring about civil rights protection for people with disabilities.
But then that sparked me going down an entire rabbit hole, right? Because I was actually really angry, it's like, “Why had I never learned about this before?” And I saw other folks online lamenting similarly, like, “Why did we not learn about this before?” So yeah, I bought every book I could find on disability history.
[Rhythmic sounds of electric train pulling into station]
[Subway chimes arpeggio played on mandolin]
Cevan Castle, Host:
This is “Towards a Kinderpublic,” a podcast exploring issues in public space, and ways to achieve a kinder public space that better meets our interconnected needs. I’m Cevan Castle, and along with Annie Chen, we are Kinderpublic.
Our guests are the co-founders of the brilliant toy company Historicons: Rajiv Fernandez, the artist behind Lil’ Icon, and published children’s author, who is also trained as an architect, and Dr. Rose Perry, an applied research scientist with a Ph.D. in Neuroscience and Physiology, and the Founder and Executive Director of Social Creatures, an applied research nonprofit.
This is the second part of our conversation with the co-founders of Historicons. If you have not accessed the first part of the conversation, you can find Part 1 on our website at kinderpublic.com under the podcast tab, or go back one week on your podcast player.
This week we speak in more depth about the neuroscience behind being able to identify with role models, about hidden history and intersectional activism, about curb cuts and what they tell us about better design of public space, and how the field of historic preservation sometimes gives us the wrong impression about disability accommodations in the past.
Thank you for joining us for this powerful conversation!
[Subway chimes arpeggio played on mandolin]
Cevan, opening interview:
I wanted to ask you about memories that you might have, as you say on the Historicons website, of piecing together history and finding individuals that you identified with. And we've talked about this quite a bit. We've touched on it several times already, but I'm wondering if you have moments where you found someone, or an event, that really struck you and was meaningful to you, and how piecing together those bits of history felt to you. I think it's such an important point to talk about how it impacts a person to find individuals that they can relate to.
Dr. Rose Perry:
Yeah. I mean, the one that I mentioned before, and I'll mention again now and expand upon, is just when I watched the Crip Camp documentary on Netflix, just because it was such a moment for me and my personal development, honestly, just learning about Kitty Cone and Judy Huemann and the Black Panthers, everyone who came together to bring about civil rights protection for people with disabilities.
But then that sparked me going down an entire rabbit hole, right? Because I was actually really angry, it's like, “Why had I never learned about this before?” And I saw other folks online lamenting similarly, like, “Why did we not learn about this before?” So yeah, I like bought every book I could find on disability history, learned about the Capital Crawl, which helped lead to the passing of the Americans with Disability Acts.
I learned about the Rolling Quads, so like Ed Roberts and Hale Zukas, basically they did a lot in general for disability rights- but, they helped create curb cuts, so the mini ramps that are on sidewalks that I think a lot of people take for granted, they didn't use to exist. The Rolling Quads would go out at night and kind of sledgehammer their own curbs and lay asphalt, and they pressured local government to actually make them a thing throughout the country.
So, learning about disability and history in general, I've learned about so many people that have just helped me feel pride in my identity and that I've identified with. And then not just them, but the allies along the way too. So, the Black Panthers with the 504 Sit In- they're responsible for like the free lunch program that we have in the states today, right- but they also brought free lunch to the activists for 30 days while they occupied a federal building. And, yeah, just intersectionality working together to uplift everyone, hopefully people can see themselves identified, but also see allies as well and identify with the allyship aspect of a lot of stories and history.
Rajiv Fernandez:
Yeah, definitely the intersectionality among the stories that we're telling. But I think just in general, you know, has an effect on me. So, you know, as a practicing architect, we have to comply with ADA [Americans with Disabilities Act] standards, and the ADA is the direct result of the 504 Sit In. I didn't know that before, like, did you?
Cevan:
I didn't know about the 504 Sit In until much later. Much, much later.
Rajiv Fernandez:
Yeah. So like, I used to complain about the stringent guidelines, you know, we had to abide by, but I think education definitely builds empathy. And now I am like super adamant about making public spaces accessible, even like private space, like any space needs to be accessible. And right now I'm reading David Gissen’s book, The Architecture of Disability…
Cevan:
I am too! And won't that really… <laughing>
Rajiv Fernandez:
Well because, you know, we went to GSAPP, and our school that we went to, they really had a heavy emphasis on architectural history, but they never taught us about this. And this is, you know, like he brings up the precedence of accessibility, like dating back to the Acropolis…
Cevan:
That's a great story. Will you say more about that? That's a really interesting point.
Rajiv Fernandez:
Yeah. So as they've been excavating the Acropolis, they noticed that there were like ramps spiraling up around to get to the top of it. So that suggests that they didn't rely on, like, stair climbing to get to the top. So, you know, we look at preservationists, and there is a level of ableism to them, when they're saying like, “Oh, if you remove the stairs and put in a ramp, like that's going to take away some of the historical context.” Well, you know, accessibility has been there from very early on. So, you know, making places accessible is not a new concept. So anyway, I think finding this connection to my professional identity to the disabled community is just proof that there's more that connects us than what appears on the surface.
Cevan:
Absolutely. I'm really glad you brought up that book. It's really fascinating, and I think reading Gissen's book is what made me really focus on the collaborative aspects of your puzzles, because he talks about how we as a society tend to look at disability as individuals. So we're isolating people, saying, “Well, we'll make some sort of accommodation for you [singular] to get to this one spot.” But, actually, these accommodations are helping us all. And that's also part of how Kinderpublic formed, we realized how many of our different user groups actually rely on the same accommodations and are benefited by them. And talking about allies, we have the same interests and these things are helping all of us. So, why would we want to look at them as something to help one individual, when, in fact, it just benefits everyone.
Like, you talking about making your home accessible: and you know, as we age <laugh>, like that will actually make our home accessible to ourselves. And, it's really interesting. And like the curb cuts, I remember living in my community at that time, <laugh> people really having to justify those being revised. And I remember specifically people advocating and saying, “Well, it uses less concrete so it's good.” Everybody uses curb cuts! Everyone does. They're such a helpful thing.
Dr. Rose Perry:
They named the Curb Cut Effect after that. Have you heard of the Curb Cut Effect?
Cevan:
<laughing> I have not. That’s great.
Dr. Rose Perry:
Well, you just described it, right? It's the concept that when you build for accessibility, that it benefits everyone, not just individuals with physical disabilities, so.
Cevan:
Right.
Dr. Rose Perry:
Curb Cut Effect.
Cevan:
Yeah.
Rose Perry:
And it's just because that's such a good example. Like, most people who are using curb cuts probably don't even realize that they were put there originally because of ADA and because of people with disabilities, because everyone uses it now.
Cevan:
It's so important to note that your body does different things on different days, no matter who you are. We don't allow for that. We don't allow for people to have surgeries. We don't allow for people to have disabilities. We don't allow for people to age. We don't allow for people to be young.
We really need to recognize that there is no one body that's moving through these spaces. It's very frustrating to me.
Dr. Rose Perry:
Yeah. We're all pretty much… well, if you're not disabled, you're temporarily able-bodied, I would argue.
Cevan:
That's right.
Dr. Rose Perry:
Because… injury, aging, it's just all a natural part of the human condition. So yeah. It doesn't get us too far to look at things through the individual framework of disability, to your earlier point.
Cevan:
Historicons materials are developed with educators and child development specialists, and your website mentions developmental areas like critical thinking skills, and positive identity development, as areas that your puzzles and educational materials will impact. Rose, from your perspective as a neuroscientist specializing in child development, can you explain a little bit more about these concepts, and particularly positive identity development?
Dr. Rose Perry:
Sure. So yeah, positive identity development really refers to the process through which we develop a strong sense of who we are. It's about forming a healthy and confident understanding of ourself, including our values, our belief systems, and personal qualities. Uh, so you can really think about it as building a solid foundation of our identity, and it ultimately influences how we perceive ourselves and interact with the world around us. And identity development is a lifelong process. So, I think it's important to mention that. I think I've even spoken about how Crip Camp, you know, I didn't see that till I was in my early thirties, and that continued to influence my positive identity development.
But it really does start in childhood. The foundations of positive identity development start in childhood and are influenced by many different factors, including family dynamics, cultural context, social interactions, and research does show that it's fostered by engaging with diverse perspectives and experiences that help us broaden our understanding of ourselves and others.
And it's essential to have supportive relationships and access to relatable role models, whether that be through history or through personal connections. And that can really inspire us and provide guidance as we figure out who we are. So, that's really what it means. And we really hope that we can be just a force, a good force, in that direction for children, especially those who often might not see themselves represented in their everyday lives, and also, who are facing stereotyping or microaggressions or impacts of being part of a marginalized group. I know that I experienced that growing up, so just trying to counteract that as much as we can as well by having discussions around this, in addition to just having representation.
Cevan:
So just to touch on that a little more, why is it important for the development of critical thinking skills and positive identity development that children have access to role models they can identify with? What are some of the specific outcomes that you are looking for, from the perspective of your background as a neuroscientist?
Dr. Rose Perry:
Yeah, I mean, in terms of outcomes, it's really about looking for things like self-esteem, confidence, and just overall wellbeing. Especially when it comes to positive identity development. Without it, it becomes so much harder to navigate challenges, to build meaningful relationships, um, and even to pursue goals. I know for myself that identifying role models and historical figures who share similar backgrounds to me, and characteristics, has helped me.And research does show that having positive role models can develop those things, but also pro-social behaviors, empathy, moral reasoning, and this goes both sides, right? So it's one thing to talk about your own positive identity development, but I think tapping into things like critical thinking as well, it's important to learn about people who have different backgrounds from you and to learn how to empathize and take perspective perspective shift into their shoes, and know how to act and how not to act.
I know that people with physical disabilities are often like the first living exhibit for kids <laugh> if they haven't been exposed to them before. So I've been there many a time where kids say things that are really embarrassing to their parents <laugh>. So yeah, I think that just having discussions early and often in an age appropriate way about things like identity and diversity, whether they're for your own self-development, or just to learn about the other folks in your environment, is so important. And, you need critical thinking skills to be able to do that. You need empathy, you need to be able to be pro-social. So that's really a lot of what we try to integrate into how we're designing our puzzles and why we've built it as a puzzle opposed to a book even. I would argue like we really want kids and adults to come back to the puzzles again and again and maybe notice something new about it for the first time…. notice an Easter that Rajiv has put in there that they didn't for the first time, and have these conversations early and often. Um, I know this is a really big thing that anti-racist, anti-bias educators also advocate for, is having the talks as early and often as possible. And yeah, that's just all related to hopefully creating a safe space for your child to identify with who they are safely and happily, but also to learn about others from different backgrounds, and know how to, to be kind and compassionate and allies to others who aren't like them.
Rajiv Fernandez:
Yeah. And can I add one thing from my non-expertise that I've noticed, kids have access to information that we could have never dreamed of growing up. And I think, especially for people that are our age and maybe like Gen-X and a little bit older who have young kids, you know, we're not equipped to answer these kids' questions. So I think there's also like a sense of embarrassment on our end. So I think by giving the tools to adults as well, it's gonna help them talk to children and explain to them, you know, the top questions that they might have.
Cevan:
That’s a great point.
Dr. Rose Perry:
Yeah, that's a great point, Rajiv. And I know that that's a concern of a lot of parents too, is like, when is the right time to start having some of these discussions? And for so many reasons, I would argue to do it early, but I will just put my personal lived experience hat on and say that, if you aren't talking about, like, if your kid has a physical disability and looks different and you're not talking about that with them, they're still going to school or they're going out in the world and they're facing other people treating them differently and doing things that aren't always nice. And when you don't have a space at home where you can talk about that, or you don't know how to process it, you internalize it as shame. Like, you feel shame in your identity. So, I think, you want your kids to hear it from you first and have a space to discuss these things because they're gonna face it in the world regardless. So, yeah, that's just my pitch for any parents listening out there that maybe feel a little bit anxious about starting to have these discussions. I just think it's so important.
Rajiv Fernandez:
Yeah. A friend of mine recently had a baby, so, I think he turned like six months old recently, and I was like, did you know that he can see race now? So, I learned that from Rose's research that as young as six months, they're starting to take notice about identity traits.
Dr. Rose Perry:
True, babies notice.
Cevan:
I want to ask you more questions about what grown ups who have not experienced modeling of these discussions at all can do. I think like engaging with materials like the games, and the educational materials that you've developed is one thing. Helping to be able to create that safe space is a really important thing.
And I'm saying that because I recognize that I need to have those things modeled for me, but also because I am the parent of a disabled child- who is visibly disabled- and I need to be able to create that safe space. And that was never a part of my upbringing at all. So I love that you brought in the idea that we need to do that for grownups as well. And, any thoughts, any further thoughts you have about that, I think would be really helpful.
Dr. Rose Perry:
Yeah, I think it's that gray space that's hard, right? So we do have discussion guides that come with all of our puzzles to try to help with that. And we've also held webinars before where we talk about that sort of stuff and the modeling, right? But I also think that it's important to just to have diverse community as well. So, like, to seek out people in your community that are adults with disability that can share with you their perspectives from when they were a kid. Also parents of other kids with disability. I think just having that space for yourself as the caregiver to learn from lived experiences is just as important as anything that we could build into our product. But yeah, we do try to at least provide those discussion guides and webinars and, and we have plans to create more content around exactly that kind of like the modeling of discussions, and filling in those gray areas when it's a new experience for the parent, which is understandable.
Cevan:
Yeah. And also, kind of <laugh> again, going back to the beginning of our discussion, like a lot of the media that we have had access to, a lot of the history that we have had access to, again, is very limited. And so we're entering discussions that as grownups that maybe we haven't had before, because that was eliminated from our history. And it wasn't that it didn't exist and it wasn't that people didn't know about it, because as you pointed out, these figures were activists, and working at that time, and they were just eliminated from the curriculum and not discussed.
Dr. Rose Perry:
Yeah. And I'll add one more piece on this that I think is important to highlight in the context of this part of the discussion, is speaking from my experience as a kid, the thing that I wish I had more of was more community with other kids with disabilities and more exposure to the social model of disability rather than just the medical model of disability. So, I see that we're shifting as a society towards more balance there. Uh, but when you go to the doctors as a parent or as a kid with a disability, you really get forced the medical model of disability…
Cevan:
That's right.
Dr. Rose Perry:
…How is this a bad thing? Or, what are your limitations? Whereas the social model of disability talks about how society creates the barriers, right? And just making sure that you can create balance in your household, understanding that, yes, sometimes the medical model of disability is relevant.
Like, I have chronic pain, I love that I can take medicine to help with my chronic pain. That's looking at things through a medical model. But I don't love that there are tables and chairs that don't fit me well. And no one ever considers how spaces and places are designed for small people, and that contributes way more to my chronic pain to begin with, right? So just delineating the two. And I think had I learned about the social model more, I would've had more confidence in my interaction with my peers. I would've been able to stand up for myself more, not even stand up, I wouldn't have maybe even needed to as much because I wouldn't have seen myself as the problem, as much as, things outside of me that I could begin to push for change for, if that makes sense. So I just think it's really important to have that balanced view of disability as a parent. And I'm glad to see that we're, we're getting more of that, but there's still a ways to go, for sure.
Cevan:
You very nicely already kind of segued into this next question, but how can a more accurate and diverse picture of history positively impact the character of our public space?
Rajiv Fernandez:
Yeah, I think, you know, as we mentioned earlier with the Acropolis example, like, these examples have existed for a long time. So we're really not creating something new, we're just creating something that's more inclusive, and the more that we publicize it and show it and show what the built environment can be like when all different types of people are enjoying it, and utilizing it, I think that will kind of create a new standard for how to build in the modern age.
Dr. Rose Perry:
Yeah, and I'll add to that, that I think just having more diverse representation and visibility of different people of different backgrounds who look different, et cetera, that if we can as a society learn just in our everyday lives, like when you think of a person, you think of a diverse group of people and not just like the status quo of what most people would visualize if you were to picture like the average American, for example, that we then start to design more inclusively also. So I think there's also a link between how can we make everyday places and spaces and experiences- increasing visibility of diverse representation to begin with. And it is a bit of a catch 22 because if the spaces aren't designed for everyone, not everyone can socially integrate, but I think media, getting better with things like media and toys can help quite a bit because it's bringing diverse visibility into the home in a bigger way than happened when we were kids.
Cevan:
And this goes back to that idea of sticky history, which is the wonderful magnetic quality of your images that can be displayed and kept present. And I'm really interested to see how that grows. And I'm really interested to see your toys in public spaces. I really encourage listeners to look at these items, look for yourself. They are perfect for birthdays, for school classrooms, for home schools, for library collections, museum activity areas. They should be everywhere, and they they're beautiful to present, as well as to keep active as toys. How can listeners find you online and stay in touch with you and support your amazing work?
Rajiv Fernandez:
Thank you for those kind words. We're on those social media platform. So Facebook, Instagram, and TikTok. We are a platform to amplify marginalized voices. We're not here to make a buck, we're here to make the world more inclusive. So, we encourage you to follow along and if there are events that you want to be told, like please let us know. We are looking to add more stories and kind of create a larger database so everyone feels like they have a piece of Historicons.
Dr. Rose Perry:
You can find us at Historicons on those social media channels that Rajiv just listed, and we're at www.historicons.com. Also, feel free to reach out, we have a contact form there, or DM us, we love hearing from folks who find us all different ways.
Cevan:
This work is really, really wonderful. And so I want to just say again, Rajiv, Rose, and also to Deonna- I'm sorry we didn't get to meet this time- but I'm so impressed with your work. What you're doing is so important and thank you so much for everything. I hope you really, really thrive in this business and we are able to find you in many, many public spaces. <laughing> Thank you so much for your time today.
Rajiv Fernandez:
Thank you, Cevan. Great to see you again.
Dr. Rose Perry:
Thank you so much for having us. Thank you.
Cevan:
Good to see you.
[Sounds of a busy neighborhood playground in Queens fade in to background]
Cevan:
Subscribe to Towards a Kinder Public on your favorite podcast player and please leave us a rating and a review. It helps increase the visibility of our message and we really appreciate your support. To share information about issues in public space, and spaces that are doing things right, email podcast@kinderpublic.com.
Links to more information about the guests and topics mentioned, as well as a full transcript of the conversation, are available on the podcast section of our website, kinderpublic.com. Visit our website to learn more about our work.
I’m Cevan Castle, our guests this week have been Dr. Rose Perry and Rajiv Fernandez, co-founders of Historicons. I wish you a good week!
[Sounds of neighborhood playground and bus passing in Queens fade out]
Mentioned in this episode:
Kitty Cone: Advocate for Disability Rights | Smithsonian American Women's History (si.edu)
Americans with Disabilities Act (A.D.A.)
Historicons 504 Sit In Puzzle Game
The Architecture of Disability: Buildings, Cities, and Landscapes Beyond Access by David Gissen
Columbia University Graduate School of Architecture, Planning, and Preservation
Contemporary Disability Access at the Acropolis