S1 Ep004 How a Semi-Rural Park Models the Power of Public Space with Kate Morse, Pt2
This is part 2 of our 2 part conversation with Kate Morse, Executive Director of Hudson Crossing Park.
Hudson Crossing Park is a bi-county public park on an island, situated between the Hudson River and the Champlain Canal, in upstate New York. We discuss the design strategies contributing to the park’s public engagement:
Why the unusual and exciting playground design reflects the park mission and future
How values of inclusivity and engagement have created unique opportunities in the design and operation of the park
How Hudson Crossing Park has modeled the power of public engagement in its region
The contribution public art makes to accessibility goals and other core elements of the park mission
“Our mission clearly states, our goal is to make sure that people of all ages are engaged in making choices for a sustainable future… This isn't just a park and playground for kids. This isn't just a spot for retirees to take walks. This should be available and accessible to everyone regardless of age, income, background, ability... The design of our Sensory Trail is a key piece of that – that was designed specifically to give a trail system that was accessible to people with physical disabilities.”
Transcript
Season 1, Episode 4 (Part 2) : How a Semi-Rural Park Models the Power of Public Space with Kate Morse
[Sounds of the rushing Hudson River and Canada geese during autumn migration season at Hudson Crossing Park ]
Kate Morse, Guest:
Our mission clearly states, our goal is to make sure that people of all ages are engaged in making choices for a sustainable future… This isn't just a park and playground for kids. This isn't just a spot for retirees to take walks. This should be available and accessible to everyone regardless of age, income, background, ability... The design of our Sensory Trail is a key piece of that– that was designed specifically to give a trail system that was accessible to people with physical disabilities.
[Sounds of train station fade in to background]
[Rhythmic sounds of train passing]
[Subway chimes arpeggio played on mandolin]
Cevan Castle, Host:
Welcome to ‘Towards a Kinderpublic’, a podcast exploring issues in public space, and ways to design kinder space that better meets our interconnected needs. I’m Cevan Castle, and along with Annie Chen, we are Kinderpublic.
Today’s episode is “How a Semi-Rural Park Models the Power of Public Space, Part 2.”
This episode is the second half of our discussion with Kate Morse, Executive Director of Hudson Crossing Park.
If you have not listened to the first half of our interview, we invite you to visit last week’s episode, and listen there first.
Previously, we discussed details of the founding of the park, how its organizational structure impacts the way the park functions in its community, and the intention of the park to invite a sense of community ownership.
This week we discuss the park design and corresponding social outcomes in more depth. While Hudson Crossing Park is a natural area situated just outside a historic main street business district, it maintains an interesting and active presence in local civic life. We’ll discuss the way that the park and its neighbors weave together the missions of economic revitalization, environmental conservation, historic preservation, and a strong investment in community vitality. We will continue to examine the way that Hudson Crossing Park manifests its conviction in the potential of public space.
Please visit the links in the episode notes or go to our website at www.kinderpublic.com, for further information and images of the design. We are grateful to have with us now Kate Morse, Executive Director of Hudson Crossing Park.
Cevan Castle, Opening Interview:
With respect to playground design, there is ongoing research about how children's play spaces are “public space participation practice” for kids. Some researchers believe that placing those spaces off to the side by themselves- similar to the metal/fence/flooring model that you're talking about…
Kate Morse, Executive Director of Hudson Crossing Park:
The playground monsters. <laughing>
Cevan Castle:
<laughing> Mm-hmm. Right! Similar to that model… [and surrounding them with a fence may undermine future public participation skills. The Play Garden is centrally located and entirely porous. Play often appropriates other nearby structures that may seem to be more for grownups, such as the stone stairs, and the pavilion. This design is so validating for kids in public space. I've noticed it can also require a period of adjustment.
How did the designers come to the decision to not separate and fence in the children away from the so-called real activities of the park? Is cultivating public participation a central part of the operational goals of the park?
Kate Morse:
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Again, very early on, we recognized that public participation in every level was an absolute necessity for the park to be a success. So, that was definitely a piece of it. And also, just- inclusivity. I think that especially, you know, obviously we were planning the park long before Covid was ever in any of our experiences, but we, naturally, over the course of more recent history, have slowly been pulling away from our communities. The loss of the front porch conversation, for lack of a better example, is a very real thing. And ideally, if you are out in a public park, you should be part of that community public experience. And by having the Play Garden, not only be sort of the central and one of the first things you come across, but it also sets the tone for the rest- hopefully- the rest of your experience while you're there.
You're going to find some unexpected things, you’re going to find unexpected experiences. And it might make you stop and think a little bit, “oh, there's a labyrinth in there. Oh, I guess you can walk in that labyrinth, or I wonder what that's for.” Or, “oh, there's a slide over here. I didn't even know that was there.”
We sort of force this level of engagement that wouldn't exist if things were just immediately placed in front of you. This is what this does, this is what that does. There's no room for interpretation. We want that interpretation. And we think that that's not only an important piece of who we are as a public space, but it's an important conversation to have in every aspect of your life, to make sure that you're not just necessarily taking things at face value, but saying, “how can I interact with this? How can I utilize this to improve my experience, and hopefully, someone else's experience?”
Cevan Castle:
I can't think of another playground that encourages kids to observe their natural surroundings so carefully. The way this playground is designed, the built elements are fused into the landscape. There are different levels, and the kids can be inside the berm, closely interacting with the soil, in the brush on the hillside, with the view of the textures of the growth, and up high with a view into the trees and of the birds. It is so impactful to embed the playground within the landscape. Can you talk about the way that the educational mission of the park interacts with this playful space? Do you find that children participate in play and programming at Hudson Crossing with a feeling of environmental expertise of the natural world around them?
Kate Morse:
They do. I hate to use this word too often, but it's a really magical thing to see kids awaken to the actual experience of interacting with the natural world around them. It's hard because, especially with the traditional educational system these days, you learn about things through books. You learn things online. You learn things about being told about these things. And we are fortunate enough to live in an area where we not only have a huge number of natural resources, but we have a huge amount of history in our backyard. We have huge opportunities and potential to be out there experiencing these things rather than just learning about them in the traditional sense. And so when we are having our educational programming, our goal is to get kids out there and experiencing things tactilely.
We want them to be dipping their acid litmus test readers in the water. We want them to see the baby Northern map turtles scuttling across the road on their way down to the river. We want them to listen for the bird calls, and experience all of these things, where, honestly, I think we're all guilty of overlooking when we're in the middle of our busy lives and our busy days.
And even just going out and taking a listening walk with a group of kids, they show up- we've had five or six year olds show up in a group of, say, a dozen- they're all talking, they're all running around, they're all so excited. And then when we start our walk along the Sensory Trail, which goes along the Hudson River, we ask them, “okay, we have to be quiet. We have to walk quietly. We have to listen. What do you hear? What do you see? What do you feel?” And, the quietness that descends upon them, and then the dawning of that wonder, is one of the best things about what we do. Because this is all here, all the time, for you to experience. You just have to figure out how to do that.
And so hopefully everything we do, whether it is something along the lines of the more formal citizen science opportunities that we have, or just having the trail system and the Play Garden available for people to come on their own time, hopefully everything that we do at Hudson Crossing encourages that experience one way or another.
Cevan Castle:
Mm-hmm. When exploring the wider park, the plantings, the trails, the shores of the river, it becomes apparent that the idea of play is woven into the entire place. There are discoveries to be made in every area. Fantastical objects to interact with, other rooms, hidden artworks. These dispersed elements oppose the place effects of centralization and the compacted experience of an advertised attraction. They become subtle and personal experiences. Playful elements have an ambiguous scale. They don't attempt to specify details about the individual they serve and the right ways to use the thing. They accommodate different developmental stages, body sizes, body abilities, and become a multi-generational point of engagement. The park seems to intentionally blur expectations. Were there specific ideas or intentions about inclusivity in the design of the park? When walking through the park, have you ever found adults playing? Does the park mission or programming address the idea of age?
Kate Morse:
Yes. Our mission clearly states, our goal is to make sure that people of all ages are engaged in making choices for a sustainable future. And so we do recognize that this isn't just a park and playground for kids. This isn't just a spot for retirees to take walks. This should be available and accessible to everyone regardless of age, income, background, ability. And I think the design of our Sensory Trail is a key piece of that- that was designed specifically to give a trail system that was accessible to people with physical disabilities. And you mentioned the hidden artwork. Along the Sensory Trail specifically, there are small bird sculptures here and there, which a lot of times I'll be taking a group through and I'll say, “oh, and here's our nuthatch.” And people will say, “I've walked past that a million and a half times, and I've never noticed it.”
Those bird sculptures were actually created by one our founding group, Leif Johnson, who was a local artist, a local metal worker, who also made our beautiful gate that welcomes visitors. And he made [the bird sculptures] life size and as accurate as possible, so that if you have a vision disability or challenge, you can actually go up and feel these sculptures. They were built to be touched, and experienced, and get an idea. And obviously if you, you don't have any of those, um, challenges, you can hear a bird and then you can see a lot, you know, a, a life size version of it right there next to you, which is a really interesting and exciting way to experience something that, again, you overlook because, oh, it's a woodpecker. I've heard that, but here's a life size woodpecker sculpture. And oh, look at this. Look at the cool crown of feathers it has. And I had no idea their tails were this long. Things like that really changed the experience.
And the idea of making everything as inclusive as we possibly can, was a key, key, key piece of the plan. This was never meant or envisioned to be something where someone would go and feel unwelcome. Again, going back to that “find your own adventure.” We have so many people who come, they walk their dogs every day at the park, and that's what the park is to them. That's their fun place to go with their dog. Other people find a sense of peace, whether they walk the meditation labyrinth or they walk the trails. Others, it's the prime bird watching spot, or they go fishing, or it's just a place to go cool off and splash in the water, or watch the boats go through the canal.
All of these pieces are worthy in their own right. And the last thing we would ever want to do is to choose one over the other. And so the need to have all of this sort of simultaneously happening, ended up basically dictating that, no, this all has to flow in its own way. We can't have any barriers saying, this is where you should be, and this is what you should go and do. And, we just, again, wanted to kind of enhance it with these fun little discoveries. One of my favorite things to do along the Sensory Trail- we have Heron statue- and it's standing just off the edge of the trail. And I can't tell you how many times I've been walking one way along the trail, and I've had adults walking the other way, and go, “don't move! There's a Heron!” <laughing> Before it dawns on them that it's not an actual living bird. And the peals of laughter inevitably just burst out of them.
And it doesn't matter if they're young or old or, you know, they come across as being very reserved. And to me, that's one of the best examples of what we can provide, is this unexpected moment of surprise and excitement and then just this joy of realization of, “oh, that's not what I thought it was. But this is great.”
And I think that that really kind of captures the personality of Hudson Crossing where it's, it's whimsical, it's educational, and, and hopefully it's surprising and brings you a little piece of unexpected joy when you visit.
Cevan Castle:
Although the park sits outside the business district, it is an essential part of the commercial identity of the area. Hudson Crossing Park interacts with and hosts everything from the local djembe drum studio to the local contemporary dance studio, to co-hosting a winter lecture series in the Greenwich Free Library. And that's just to name a few. Some of these businesses and organizations have ample space and programming of their own, but the park seems to be in relationship with local businesses as both a participant and a second location. The park has not only closed the geographic distance between itself and the towns that are major stakeholders, but has also built a bridge between commercial indoor space dedicated to commercial activity, and natural space, which is not commercial in mission.
You've touched on this already, but if I could ask for further detail: what is the connection or commitment between the park and the nearby business districts? Is this written into the mission or purpose of the park (you've indicated that it is). What does the interaction look like in these mutually supportive relationships and collaborations, and what limits does the park have for commercial activity? I'm thinking of, for example, the fact that park entry and many activities are free of charge.
Kate Morse:
Sure. I'll answer that piece first. We are always open to partnerships and we do offer our grounds and facilities for rental. And that's the only time that we have any sort of restriction on what our visitors can or can't do. And we always do this with the caveat of, “the park will be open to the public.” If you're reserving the pavilion for a specific event, you can have the pavilion for this amount of time. But just so you know, there will be people enjoying the rest of the property. And we're, we would certainly welcome a commercial opportunity in that same manner, within a limited capacity. We would never, ever consider doing something long-term that would seriously restrict public access to the park, or to major pieces of the park. But, you know, if someone wanted to have a craft fair or something like that, by all means.
And to be fair, we look at that as another potential economic driver for our downtown. For the last two years, we were lucky enough to have the Albany Symphony Orchestra come and provide a free community concert. Obviously that's a free community concert, but they take up a lot of space. Our entire field and pavilion and the vast portion of the park is taken up with this event. But the last event, we had thousands of people come, and it was fabulous, and it brought a lot of business to our downtowns. And that recognition that a healthy downtown is a piece of a healthy park, a healthy community, a healthy region, is a big piece of who we are. Schuylerville specifically had a lot of struggles over the past few decades, especially with the loss of a lot of industry, the PCB pollution in the Hudson, which had to be dredged up and cleaned, it had some rough times and a lot of challenges that a lot of other communities didn't have to face.
But thankfully we have seen this very similar mentality as to what created the park, this grassroots, “we are going to make this happen,” approach within the downtown businesses and partner organizations like Hudson Crossing Park. It really is this fantastic, fantastic community collaboration, recognizing that just because I'm the head of the park doesn't mean I can't also help promote what's happening on Main Street and vice versa. Or support what's happening on Main Street and vice versa. And it's become a really, really amazing experience to be a part of these conversations. There's a Schuylerville Community Conversations group that meets every month, and it's spearheaded by Chelsie Henderson of Rural Soul Music Studio, the djembe studio that you mentioned. And it's this very special opportunity where anyone from the community, and I use community in the broadest sense of the term, you don't have to be a resident of Schuylerville to come, comes, and then we just share what we're up to.
And so if we have an event or a program happening at the park, I bring that up. If Chelsie has something going on at the music studio or Pam down at Bound by Fate Tap Room has something going on. We all share these ideas and these happenings, and we also support each other. If someone says, “oh, I've got, I've got this going on, but I'm not sure how to get the word out,” hands raise and say, “well, I can put it up on my social media,” or, “I've got a flyer space if you wanna give me a flyer.”
Cevan Castle:
Hmm.
Kate Morse:
It's a very, very special, unique environment. And I do think that having a place like Hudson Crossing Park that was created through a similar process may have helped spur that. Not to give Hudson Crossing too much <laughing> too much credit, but it showed people in the communities all through the region, what you're capable of doing if you really do work together. If you're tenacious, you work hard, you don't let go of an idea because you know it's a good idea and you can make it happen. And we're seeing that happen in our downtowns now too. And Hudson Crossing certainly wants to support that in any and every way that we can.
Cevan Castle:
Back to the park itself, the invitation to discover hidden objects and structures distributed throughout the park is an interesting point of divergence from the park's synchronicity with commercial spaces. Commercial space must function in a more centralized way to best support commercial activity. The way the design choices were made in the park emphasized that this space has a complimentary but different and non-commercial mission. Almost all of the public art in the park seems to refer back to the identity of the park, the life size sculptures of local birds that you mentioned tucked into the trees. Also the fanciful large turtle sculpture along the trail where turtle eggs are likely to be found, or the fairy houses constructed from materials found in the park. In this way, the artwork seems to be a visual component of the educational mission, rather than working as a self-referential art piece of place or art experience. It centers the long history of the place and its ongoing relationship with the changing human communities around it. Is this how you see the role of the art at the park? Was art supporting the educational mission, a stated goal? Can you talk about the artists that have contributed to the park and the vision for their participation, and how do you curate and place the work in the park?
Kate Morse:
Absolutely. So it was always part of the vision of, again, incorporating these interpretations and human made interpretations of the world around them, but also- hopefully- tying into the natural environment that we're housing them in. And it's very interesting to see how it does inform people's experiences. I think that the vast majority of the sculpture throughout the park, while they certainly stand on their own as individual pieces, the unifying factor is that it does draw you in a little bit further than maybe you were originally planning on going. And one of the, one of the pieces that is probably most guilty of that, for lack of a better term <laughing>, is Across the Boat Bridge by Zac Ward, which, if you've ever visited the park, I'm sure you have noticed, it's a very large wrought iron cauldron, heart shaped piece, that's enclosed in a locust split rail fence, in the middle of our field. And that may be one of the pieces that I get the most questions about, um, usually along the lines of, what is that thing? <laughing> And my response is, “what do you think? What do you think it is?” And it's a really neat piece because it literally invites you to go into that penned-in area and interact with the piece itself. It has a hinged door that you can open and close. I think that's just a prime example of our general approach to art.
There certainly is the educational piece with a lot of our pieces. I mentioned Leif Johnson earlier, who designed and created the birds and our wrought iron gate. He and Luke Claymon also created a piece that's down by our floating dock, along the canal, and that's called Molly's Knob. And that was actually created in honor of General John Stark's wife, who, again, tying back to the history of the area, he was an American general who was credited for one of the main reasons that the British had to surrender after the Battle of Saratoga because he cut them off in their retreat. But Molly, his wife, is credited as the one who convinced him not to quit the whole thing in the first place because he was kind of <laughing> he was kind of discouraged because he didn't think he was getting enough credit. So lo and behold, here we are, his name is very recognizable, Molly's isn't. But our artists wanted to sort of give a nod to her as a very important piece of this local history that sort of gets overlooked. I think that's just a fantastic interpretation of that story. And the same down at Eagle Point. There's a piece that was created by Sandy MacLeod called Rockin’. And I personally didn't even realize this until I started working at the park, but it's a vertical piece with a large piece of granite, that again, is on a wrought iron rod with a large wheel at the top. And it was inspired essentially by the canal system and just the mechanical and engineering genius of the locks and everything that goes into operating the canal. And if you turn the wheel at the top and you spin it, the entire piece rocks back and forth, like the waves of the water. I had no idea. You were invited to interact with these pieces one way or another and you're treated with something unexpected. And it does go back to the identity of the park. It may be obvious, it may not be obvious to <laughing> the average viewer, but by noticing these pieces and having them throughout the property, we are helping tell the story and the stories of the history of the park and its surroundings.
Cevan Castle:
Mm-hmm. I visit the park almost every week and see that elements of the park continue to emerge and grow. Can you talk about what you're working on and what's in store for the park in the future?
Kate Morse:
One of our biggest projects that we're working on right now, and probably the one that I'm most excited about, is that we are installing new native plant pollinator gardens. And you may have noticed they started going in last year and this year they're gonna look really good because they <laughing> they've had a year of growth under their belt. But again, spurred by our amazing volunteers who've spent hours and hours and hours out there planting and laying all of the mulch and plotting things out, we are now going to have some really beautiful swaths both in the Play Garden area and Eagle Point, which we will then be able to utilize for our educational programming. We're going to have some walks where we talk about the importance of native plants and flowers and pollinators in our entire environmental ecosystem as well as our backyard.
And we're also working on installing a meadow in the sky, which will be a path through the field of various, trees that are native, trees that are very important to pollinators that will grow and keep each other healthy and keep the environment healthy, and really become, I think a focal point of the park. Again, inviting people to go a little bit deeper, experience something that they didn't necessarily plan on experiencing and hopefully learn a little bit along the way about how they can be good stewards for the environment and make sure that all of these things are here for generations to come.
Cevan Castle:
That's beautiful.
Kate, thank you so much for your time today and for explaining all of these things about this spectacular park. I hope our listeners get a chance to visit and experience some of these things for themselves. It's really a spectacular place. Thank you so much.
Kate Morse:
Thank you. Thanks so much.
[Sound of birds only for a few seconds, then fade into background]
Cevan:
Subscribe to Towards a Kinder Public on Apple Podcasts and leave us a rating and a review, we would love your feedback. To share information about issues in public space, and spaces that are doing things right, email podcast@kinderpublic.com.
Links to more information about the guests and topics mentioned, as well as a full transcript of the conversation, are available on the podcast section of our website, kinderpublic.com. Visit our website to learn more about our work.
I’m Cevan Castle, our guest has been Kate Morse, Executive Director of Hudson Crossing Park. Here is the sound of a late summer evening in the meadow at Hudson Crossing Park.
[Recording of insects in the meadow and Canada geese on the river at Hudson Crossing Park]
Cevan:
Thanks for listening, I wish you a good week!
[Recording of the meadow fades out]
Mentioned in this episode:
Hudson Crossing Park
Village of Schuylerville, New York
Historian - Village of Schuylerville
Greenwich Free Library
Greenwich Free Library – Our library’s website
Albany Symphony Orchestra
Albany Symphony | Official Ticket Website
Rural Soul Music Studio
Music Classes | Rural Soul Music Studio | Schuylerville
Bound by Fate Taproom
DanceLili Creative Ballet and Movement Studio
Art at Hudson Crossing Park:
Art in the Park — Hudson Crossing Park