S2 Ep009 Asian-American Identity, the NYC Marathon and Being a Work from Home Dad with Dave Liao, Pt1
Dave Liao is the owner of web and print design firm Offpeak Design, is Chinese American, and a dad who lives with his wife and daughter in Queens, New York. In part 1 of this 2-part episode, we discuss:
Running the New York City Marathon which gave him an opportunity to reflect on his feelings about belonging
The mistakes that Americans often make when meeting new people
Why he was excited to move into a neighborhood with many immigrants
How working from home while parenting is a wonderful opportunity with a personal cost
Bio:
David is a city kid dad who has raised his daughter in Brooklyn, and now Queens. He has
worked from home as a web designer for the past 15 years, 10 of which were spent making
lunches and hosting playdates. In an effort to pull himself out of the pandemic blues and
manage anxiety about personal health (and the state of the world!), he recently ran the NYC
Marathon for the first time with almost no running experience.
On running the NYC Marathon to raise funds to help the Museum of Chinese in America (MOCA) find a permanent home after a fire in 2020 destroyed the iconic building:
“So, I could post on social media and say, “Stop Asian Hate,” and things like that. But I do feel like a long-term solution is to encourage education about Chinese culture and experiences in America. And so I thought this is, you know, a great opportunity to support an organization that does do that. They're gonna be able to create that focus for the long term for many generations to come.” - Dave Liao
Transcript
Season 2, Episode 9 (Part 1) : Asian-American Identity, the NYC Marathon and Being a Work from Home Dad: An Interview with Dave Liao
Dave Liao, Guest:
I was excited about the idea of moving to Queens because I didn't really have a connection to the Chinese community, and so there are a lot of different immigrant communities here, and I wanted to be more connected to that.
In this particular area I live in, there's not actually a big Chinese community, but there's a whole lot of other immigrant communities. And so, I really found it to be an enriching experience for me and also for raising my daughter, I feel.
[Rhythmic sounds of electric train pulling into station]
[Subway chimes arpeggio played on mandolin]
Cevan Castle, Host:
Welcome to ‘Towards a Kinderpublic’, a podcast exploring issues in public space, and ways to design kinder space that better meets our interconnected needs. I’m Cevan Castle, and along with Annie Chen, we are Kinderpublic.
Our guest is Dave Liao, who is Chinese American, a dad, and a web designer who has been working from home for many years. He is an expert on navigating the city as a dad with a small child. Dave lives with his family in Queens, New York, in what is certainly one of the most vibrant and diverse urban areas of the world.
This interview will be shared in two parts, and we really encourage tuning in for both of them. The conversation is personal, and highlights important themes about inclusion to improve the accessibility of public space. Listening to this episode is one active step you can take to support that value, wherever you are.
In this first portion of the interview, we will talk about Dave running the New York City Marathon, being Chinese American, and parenting a small child while working from home. There are also some classic New York stories.
We feel so fortunate to introduce you now to Dave Liao, and share this interview with you. I hope you enjoy it!
[Subway chimes arpeggio played on mandolin]
Cevan, Opening Interview:
Good morning, Dave! Thank you so much for joining me.
Dave Liao:
Thank you for having me. Very excited to be here.
Cevan:
You have such an important area of expertise when it comes to the accessibility of public space. I'm excited to talk to you about your experiences as a dad with a small child in New York City. To help orient everyone, our families have been friends for around eight years, and when we met, we had kids that were two years old or so. So, when I talk about the amazing way that you and your wife, Jean, have balanced parenting responsibilities, and my awareness that you have a particular expertise in navigating public space with a small child, I am referencing a period of time that extends to pre-covid circumstances and routines. Your role in caregiving was very intentional and took place over an extended period of time.
But first, I would like to ask you about recently running the New York Marathon! During your run, you were fundraising for the Museum of Chinese in America.
Congratulations on that achievement!
Dave Liao:
Thank you so much.
Cevan:
Can you talk about your personal background, and inspiration to run, and fundraising for the museum?
Dave Liao:
Sure. Well, I guess my personal background, in terms of running, is that I had very little experience running. I had, um, maybe- 10 years ago before I did this- I ran a 10K with no training, very little training, and it was rough. And I just didn't run after that.
And then over the pandemic, I was definitely thinking about my health more, and thinking about fitness. One of the great things about the pandemic, I guess if you're looking for good things, was that the streets were completely abandoned, you know, during the height of the pandemic, and in the city, that's a very unique experience. And so I was very fortunate to take advantage of that, and I would go bike riding.
But yeah so I really was biking more and trying to be more active and exercising more. And then because of this more recent attempt to be more connected to my fitness, I think I started getting more confidence about trying to run again.
And so I ran a 5K back in May last year and I didn't train for that at all. I sort of did a practice run like four days before it. And then I ran it, and I felt, this was really, really hard, but I felt like it was a nice accomplishment given all the things that we've been through. And then about like, maybe less than a week later after I did it, I got an email from the Museum of Chinese in America, and it was just a general newsletter email asking folks to participate in the marathon on their behalf. And I thought it was maybe an omen or something, because I thought, this is what I need to motivate me to keep running.
You know, I never thought about running a marathon. I thought they make it sound like it's possible. Even if you never really ran that much, that you could do it, you could follow a train schedule. They made it seem a lot easier than it actually was. It was really, <laugh> it was really ridiculously hard, especially if you're, you know, especially when you're not young and you have a family, you have your job and stuff like that. So, training does require a lot of time and commitment. And, it was really hard, but I really did appreciate the experience and felt it really valuable. And when I look back, I wish that I would've pursued it earlier because I feel like it just adds a whole lot of value to my everyday experience in terms of how I think about getting through goals or my health.
The biggest thing I think it taught me is that you need to have balance in your life. Because in order to run that level of distance, 26.2 miles, you have to have… like you can run two miles with poor form and get away with it. But to run that long, and for me it was very long time because I ran very slowly, you have to have good form and balance throughout the whole time.
So, you know, marathons are often used as metaphors for life. And it definitely holds true, I feel. You have to like, you know, make sure you keep yourself balanced, make sure you're not trying to overcompensate. What I learned is that, during my training, I got injured. I had a knee injury because I had overtrained. And part of the reason I overtrained is because when I started to hit longer distances, I would hit varying levels of terrain, which I thought I had to, like, adapt and change the way I ran a little bit. So I had to like, oh, I thought I had to lean to one side if I was like running along a slopey kind of road.
And you're supposed to sort of just keep your body overall balanced and not try to overcompensate by doing something else. I would just like try to do weird things to try to overcompensate, but that ended up causing more injury. And also, in the repetition of that, because there's such an extreme level of repetition when you run on distances, that it just really created a high risk for all kinds of injuries. So, I was injured during training, like two weeks before the marathon started, and so I thought, oh, maybe I'm not gonna be able to make it. So, I stopped running two weeks before I stopped my training and just did other types of training. And then I did a lot of research on how to run the marathon, like how to run, so that I wouldn't get injured.
And so I think that really helped me a lot. And I actually did run the marathon, but I ran it very slowly to prevent injury and also tried to make sure that I practiced this balance of form. So, at the end I felt like it was grueling, but I was able to leave without further injury. So that's what I was like really excited about, even though it took me like the whole day to run that thing. I never wanted to run after that, after I finished that. But yeah, that was my running experience.
And then, the reason I did it for the Museum of Chinese America was, well, one, it was the invitation, but the reason I was sort of inspired in that moment also was that, you know, this was at a time where we were all aware that Chinese in America were facing a lot of backlash. And, there was a lot of concern about the perception of Chinese in America.
So, I could post on social media and say, “Stop Asian Hate,” and things like that. But I do feel like a long-term solution is to encourage education about Chinese culture and experiences in America. And so I thought this is, you know, a great opportunity to support an organization that does do that. They're gonna be able to create that focus for the long term for many generations to come. So I thought this was a more effective use of my support.
And my background, personally, is that I am Chinese American. I was born and raised here in New York, not New York City, but Westchester, New York.
So I definitely have a connection to that experience. And I never really thought about that experience too much prior to doing the marathon for the Chinese in America. It offered a lot of opportunity to reflect on that. I think the biggest struggle is that you have this dual sense of self. You have this sense that, “I'm American, I have the American experience.” I don't really identify with the Chinese culture or the Chinese community in general. But I am Chinese and I’m very visually Chinese. So, throughout my life, I've experienced what it's like to be Chinese, in that sense.
People often ask me like, they expect that I know a lot about Chinese culture, and I don't, I'm like the worst at it. So I've always had that little bit of that struggle. And so I've tried to compensate a lot of times when I engage somebody new. I think it's changed a lot, since when I was younger, but when I was younger, people often had a lot of expectations when they would meet me for the first time. And, so I'd often find myself overcompensating by, you know, trying to reassure them that, I, you know, I speak English, I am American. I have very shared- you know, speaking to other Americans of other nationalities and races- that I have the same kind of mindset as they do.
Cevan:
Could I ask you quickly- I think you already mentioned one, but- the kinds of expectations that people would have when they met you: that you spoke another language, I think you also mentioned that you had a certain amount of awareness of Chinese culture, and that it might be in equal proportion or greater proportion to your awareness of American culture. What were the kinds of expectations that people approached you with, that you felt you needed to immediately flip?
Dave Liao:
Um…
Cevan:
Did I just name them all? <laugh> In listening to you, I heard those.
Dave Liao:
<laughing> Well, certainly, language was one of them. Like, you know, sometimes I would get a comment like, “oh, your English is really good,” or something like that.
Cevan:
<affirmative> Yeah!
Dave Liao:
And, you know, it’s sort of like…. it's unusual for me to hear because I'm like, well, I was born here.
Cevan:
You’re like, “I grew up in Westchester, so…..” <laugh>
Dave Liao:
It wasn't much of an accomplishment for me. So, there’s that… I guess a lot of times it's also like there’s an awkward moment sometimes in conversations when the subject matter revolves around Asianness or Asian culture or Asian perspective. And then people would just give you the look and say, you know, “well, what do you think about that?”
As if I have a different perspective... There's this assumption that I have more of a connection to the Chinese or Asian community or culture. And that is frustrating because I do wish I had more of a connection to the Asian community and to Asian culture. I mean, I was raised by a family of immigrants, so they did have that culture in their lives, and that was part of their lives. And that was a little bit part of my life, through them, but I never really felt really truly connected or fully understood it. And I have very limited Chinese speaking abilities, it's almost like baby level. And so, I'm not really able to have conversations with other Chinese people who are native speakers. It is sort of something.. I'm not sure I felt like I longed for, but at the same time, I, now as I get older, I feel like I wish that I would have just embraced the culture that I was a part of, rather than trying to long for a culture that I felt like I should have been a part of because of my skin. Because I was always treated in a way that I should be part of that culture or something. But I wasn't.
Cevan:
Yeah. Thank you for sharing that.
Dave Liao:
Sometimes the expectation would be, not only might I have a Chinese experience, but I might be from somewhere else, because of my appearance. So a lot of times people, I think, had the expectation that I'm from somewhere else because I look like I'm from somewhere else. That’s very frustrating because, you know, you get treated, certainly, as if you were an outsider, even if you lived in that place your whole life. Being from New York, and I've lived here, and experienced New York, my whole life, but a lot of times I'd be in situations where people would not be sure about me because they would think that I was from another country or something like that. So I definitely felt like I was being treated differently for that reason, and then again, that's why I'd find myself overcompensating to reassure people that I am not from somewhere else, that I know the circumstances regarding this situation. And you don't have to worry about educating me about, you know, cultural practices or things like that.
Cevan:
Yeah. That's really important. Thank you for sharing that. I think it's helpful to know what we're doing. You know, I think that some people just don't realize. And some people do. <laugh>
Dave Liao:
Yeah. And I think it takes, you know… awareness doesn't happen overnight. People have to have experience. I'm certainly guilty of perceiving things with limited insight into other people's situations. I make the same assumptions about other races and things like that. And so it takes experience to be able to fully understand that these other experiences exist.
Part of the reason that I moved to the city was the allure of this idea that I would be exposed to a lot of different experiences, a lot of different types of people. When I first moved to Brooklyn, there's just so many different types of people you meet, and I was very excited to meet different types of people with different perspectives.
I grew up in the suburbs, and so I felt like the perspectives were kind of limiting. Like, I kind of knew automatically how a lot of people thought about the way things are and, you know, and if people had varying perspectives on things, they didn't really share it in that kind of community, because to be perceived as different was kind of frowned upon, I guess. I think things have evolved a lot since then. But moving to the city, I was able to just meet a lot more different types of people and different types of perspectives, and having different types of experiences. It was almost silly how much I longed for this, because one time I went to an interview for an apartment, and the guy interviewing me, which we became roommates, was gay.
And he shared that fact in an interview, and, I didn't really know a lot of gay people growing up, or I actually look back and I think I did, I just didn't know that they were gay. And when he shared that, I almost blurted out, “oh, I'm so excited to be having that experience living with a gay person,” or something like that.
Cevan:
You're like, “that's perfect!” <laugh>.
Dave Liao:
But then I thought, I'm not gonna say that that's going to come off really weird. But that's also the reason that I was excited about the idea of moving to Queens because I didn't really have a connection to the Chinese community, and so there are a lot of different immigrant communities here, and I wanted to be more connected to that.
In this particular area I live in, there's not actually a big Chinese community, but there's a whole lot of other immigrant communities. And so, I really found it to be an enriching experience for me and also for raising my daughter, I feel. Having grown up in the suburbs, I felt like, oh, I really missed out on seeing other people who are like me. And, you know, going through the same types of things that I was going through. I was like, probably one of two Chinese kids in my school. But my daughter has a very different experience. She goes to school with a lot of kids who are Americans, but they come from immigrant families, so they all have a lot of different faces, and experiences, and so I definitely see how her perspective on the world is very different from my perspective on the world at the, you know, when I was her age. Hopefully that pans out to be something very positive in her life. And for those around her.
Cevan:
I really agree with that. And as someone who also had a suburban upbringing, I felt it was very confining, because for the most part there was an expectation of conformity at that time. I remember when I moved to the city feeling like I could really breathe for one of the first times in my life, and I wasn’t preoccupied with what I looked like to the neighbors, it was obvious people had a lot of different ideas, so I could rearrange that and instead be really curious about what the neighbors were thinking and what they were doing, but in a positive way. That was such a helpful reframe for me.
Dave Liao:
Yeah, yeah definitely. I definitely know what you mean. That's what I love about the city. I feel like it gives you a lot of opportunities to be open to new experiences, to really feel comfortable to explore your community and other people around you. At the same time, you have the safety of anonymity because there's so many people around. You don't feel the pressure of, if I do make a mistake, the whole community is going to know it, and they're gonna start sharing stories about me, or something like that, where that's what I kind of felt like when I was in the suburbs. You felt like you didn't want to engage because you were concerned how the neighbors would look at you, you didn't want to be part of that type of drama or something like that.
Whereas in the city, it's just dramatic every day and we're just sort of just bumping into each other all the time, there's less of that pressure of having to conform, or you just see everybody's exposed for who they are, and you see that diversity very transparently. So yeah. Then you can feel more comfortable about being yourself because you're saying, okay, I'm exposed to so much, so many different personalities, and there's nothing to hide here, as much. That's been a great thing.
Cevan:
Yeah. I love that. <laugh> I really appreciate you sharing all of those ideas. And your openness.
Dave Liao:
Thank you. Thank you for letting me. Giving me an opportunity to do that.
Cevan:
I also want to talk to you about your perspective of being a dad in the city and how public space works for you. So, this has just been an amazing conversation, and I don't wanna transition before we're ready. But, could I ask you to share a little bit about your professional background and your business and the work that you do? And that information will help frame the picture of your day as a parent.
Dave Liao:
Sure. I'm a web designer, I guess I'm a freelance web designer. I’ve been working from home for the past 15 years. And before that I was more of a print designer. In the corporate world, I was designing booklets and presentations and things that would be printed on paper and distributed. So, when I started my own business Off Peak Design, it was more focused on print design, and design in general. I was more interested in making things look aesthetically nice and professional. But I started around 2008, so a lot of people didn't have a website, and that's where their need was.
And so a lot of clients asked me, do I do websites? And I wanted the business, I was just starting out. So I said yes, and so I had to learn how to make websites, how to code, and at that time, there was a lot of development happening, but the resources for learning about it were… you really had to do your own research. It was a lot to learn. Once that started happening, I sort of made web design my focus because it just required a lot more than print design, because print design, you design something like an image and then it gets printed and then you're done. You don't have to go back and do anything. Where a website, you have to build it, and make sure it works, and then it's kind of a living thing on the web. And so it’s constantly evolving and needing maintenance.
So, yeah, the only downside I would say about going that direction is that I really do like designing and making things with my visual experience, so, having to do websites has become more of a technical challenge. And I find myself often dealing with a lot of technical issues, which I'm not super excited about, but, you know, I know how to do it, I am proud of that.
But, so I've been doing it for all kinds of different clients. When I started it was a lot of individuals and small businesses. And I guess when my credibility improved, then I was working with more corporate clients and organizations, and nonprofits. When you're freelancing, you get to work with a lot of different types of clients. You don't really have a boss. So, you're meeting all these people, one to one and you're learning about their industries and you're learning about different types of personalities that deal with those types of industries. It’s been a very interesting process.
One of my memorable experiences, early on, was I did a website for this violinist. And he said, I can't pay you with a check or a credit card, because I'm like, an artist. So I don't have a bank account or something. So if you can meet me, I can give you cash for your services. And so I said ok sure and I met him in Midtown and then he said, okay, meet me like on 42nd street, so Times Square. And then we were texting, you know, for location, and then he's like, oh, I'm down in the subway. And I said, okay, this is unusual. I never met anybody in the subway, like underground, so I went down underground and then there he was, he was playing in Times Square and he had a huge crowd around him and he's playing like this electric violin.
And he had a violin case or something that was just collecting money from people. So I just stood there and I enjoyed his set. And then when he finished, the crowd dispersed and he greeted me. And it was unusual to, like, get greeted by the person that's performing in the subway, on a personal level. And, then he said, “hi, how are you doing? He's like, yeah, I have your money right here.” And he reached into that, the violin case, and he just pulled out a wad of bills and he just handed to me and I just thought, if somebody's like watching this, this is probably kind of an unusual thing to see, like, this guy just walks over and the street artist is handing him his earnings.
And so, yeah, when you sort of put yourself out there, you get put into all kinds of interesting experiences. And that was one of my favorites.
Cevan:
So, when our families met about eight years ago, we were all living in a very neighborly and walkable area in Queens, where you still live, and you were working primarily from home, and your spouse was working primarily outside the home. Would it be correct to say that you had the role of primary caregiver during the week? And can you talk about the kinds of things you did with your child, and give an example of what your day looked like?
Dave Liao:
Yeah, that's all kind of true. I definitely was the primary caregiver, and my wife, she always felt really bad about this. I just want to say that she wanted to be more of that, but she had a full-time job and she had to go to the office, she really regretted not being able to do more in that area. But it just worked out that way because I was working from home. So, I definitely saw a value in having that opportunity.
I would say, early on, the early days of baby, I would just be watching her by myself while I was working. I often had her strapped to my chest while I was working at the computer. I remember when I would… this is the more early days of doing remote meetings, I guess before Zoom became popular… and so I was just doing a phone call and I was talking to a group of people in a meeting room in their offices. I was talking and usually I had her strapped to my chest and she'd be sleeping or she'd be very quiet. But she's not used to me just talking a lot, to her. When I am talking to her, she expects to talk back because, you know, we're having conversation.
Cevan:
Right! <laughing>
Dave Liao:
So I didn't think about this, but I had her strapped to my chest during this meeting. And so of course when I started talking, I had an earpiece and a microphone, and the microphone was perfectly positioned, like right over her head. And so she immediately would start babbling very clearly to me, and it was kind of like a pitch meeting, like, let me tell you about how I can offer my services to your business, kind of meeting. But it worked out because they were very sympathetic, to the situation. And they always reflect upon that experience every time we have a meeting they say, “oh, remember that time you had that baby strapped to your chest? And she was like, talking on our meeting? That was really funny.”
Yeah. So there are a lot of challenges, I'd say working from home and raising a small child, I think you get a lot of guilt because when I'm working and she's around, I feel like I should be attending to her and giving her stimulating activities, engaging her. Yeah, it was very challenging in that way. We would hire babysitters to come watch her while I was working and they would be in the house. So we didn't have to be that concerned about hiring a super sitter because I was around, so I could always provide support. Unfortunately, that was not a great idea because I would always see an opportunity to be supportive. So I'd just be like the babysitter assistant, basically.
Cevan:
Assistant. <laughing> Right!
Dave Liao:
And it was kind of challenging to get work done because I'd always kind of be distracted and sometimes you have this guilt that you wanna give your child the best care. And so if you see the babysitter doing something and you're like, oh, I think I could help. I really wish that I had learned to set limits on myself and say you just have to trust this person to do what they are doing, and it will be ok.
Cevan:
So you were working from home, you had some help sometimes, and then you were sort of alternating between activities with your child and work. Is that correct?
Dave Liao:
Yeah, yeah. And still thinking about the baby phase, um, or the infant phase, their schedules are very inconvenient to a working schedule. It goes back to balance again because, the biggest thing about a young child who's like one, one-ish is like, um, is sleeping, right? They have to take naps, they take a lot of naps, and you don't wanna over nap because then they, they can't sleep at night. And then they drive you nuts and you don't get to sleep.
Cevan:
And you might still be working… right… because… your workday has expanded to an 18 hour day. <laughing>
Dave Liao:
Yeah. Precisely. That's kind of one of the plus and minuses of freelancing is that you have very flexible hours. I found it a huge struggle to try to keep that balance of trying to make sure that her needs are being met and then it, and my needs are being met with work.
I remember, you know, it just was also such a physical toll, raising a small child. When she would have trouble sleeping, I'd try to find all kinds of ways to try to, you know, encourage her to nap and to get into the rest mode. And what I found worked the best was to have her strapped to my chest
Cevan:
In a baby carrier?
Dave Liao:
Yeah. I felt like that was the most soothing for her. And so a lot of times, you know, I just remember I would constantly have her on my chest, when it gets close to that time for her to take a nap. And what they say now is that you should sleep when your kid sleeps, right? So I did kind of have that flexibility. And I do remember like, a lot of times I'd just fall asleep with her on my chest, but it was never like, comfortable for me because I'd be like sleeping on a table because I'd had to be sleeping with her on my chest, so I couldn't just like lay comfortably in a bed or something. It would just be like wherever I was, like on a bench or a table, very uncomfortably. <laugh>
Cevan:
Yeah, yeah. <laugh>
Dave Liao:
Yeah. And it was, yeah, like I said, it was very physical. So I definitely empathize with all parents as they struggle, going through this process. I would say as a dad, I feel like there's a little advantage for men because we usually tend to have more upper body strength. And I feel that's really required a lot of times, for convenience sake. I probably had a lot more flexibility because, and of course this is different for everybody, but, whenever I would travel with her, I would always have the option to carry her on my shoulders or in my arms.
And sometimes you'd have to carry them for a very long time, you know? And it could become very strenuous on your body. I found it very physically challenging and I even remember getting injuries because I probably didn't take care of myself that well. And so I’d get knee injuries and back injuries because you're just like, you become this vessel for this child, and so you just don't think about yourself too much. I'm just a donkey. <laugh> You know, whatever they need, just throw it on me. <laughing>
Cevan: Right! <laughing>
[Sounds of a busy neighborhood playground in Queens fade in to background]
Cevan:
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Links to more information about the guests and topics mentioned, as well as a full transcript of the conversation, are available on the podcast section of our website, kinderpublic.com. Visit our website to learn more about our work.
I’m Cevan Castle, our guest this week has been Dave Liao. Look for Part 2 of this conversation next week!
[Sounds of neighborhood playground and bus passing in Queens fade out]
Mentioned in this episode: